M10-P or M10R

[Thejoon]

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Thanks for replies. 

Then...M10R from my options. 

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[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

From what I’ve heard, it’s not a phenomenon proper to the M10R but to all high resolution camera where the saturation is affected SOOC. It’s half a second to tweak in post though, and you could even set up an import profile with slightly increased saturation. 

M10-R default color is probably a simple matter of inheritance from the S3 mother sensor. I've moved up from lower megapixel cameras to 45-50mp cameras in the Canon, Nikon, and Fujifilm world and have never seen a drop in SOOC color saturation.

I would call M10-R color cinematic rather than the broad-brush of saying there are merely saturation differences.

Edited March 10, 2021 by hdmesa

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, IMAGEPOWER said:

It's pretty much just saturation rather than color rendering. If I increase color saturation (HIGH) in my M10-R, the results are actually almost identical to those of my M10-P Reporter set on NORMAL saturation (latest firmware on both bodies), i.e. I can use both cameras for the same project being sure colors match. However, M10-R color was tweaked during the last 2 firmware updates. It's only since the latest update that I actually have come to love the colors of the M10-R just like those on the M10-P (I do know that the latest firmware update officially tackled perspective correction only but I am pretty sure color rendition was taken care of as well)

Those are JPEG settings.... better IMO shoot RAW (DNG) and make a simple color profile, for instance using ColorChecker Passport. Why let Leica or Adobe control, and more importantly, why throw away data forever?
 

Jeff

 

[hdmesa]

18 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Those are JPEG settings.... better IMO shoot RAW (DNG) and make a simple color profile, for instance using ColorChecker Passport. Why let Leica or Adobe control, and more importantly, why throw away data forever?
 

Jeff

 

The M10-R samples from DPR I downloaded and opened in Capture One – I can't tell them apart from the M10-P I have since they used the 50 Chron I have, too. FWIW, Lightroom is notorious for having a bad profile for a new camera at release and then having to update it later on.

Anyway, I see way more differences in color between Leica lenses than I do between sensors (excluding the M9 of course).

[Jeff S]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

The M10-R samples from DPR I downloaded and opened in Capture One – I can't tell them apart from the M10-P I have since they used the 50 Chron I have, too. FWIW, Lightroom is notorious for having a bad profile for a new camera at release and then having to update it later on.

Anyway, I see way more differences in color between Leica lenses than I do between sensors (excluding the M9 of course).

You’ve touched on reasons why I suggested making one’s own custom profile.  Simple, and without depending on others.

Jeff

[hdmesa]

44 minutes ago, Steven said:

I read that somewhere in the forum around the time it first came out. No idea 🤪

Yeah, the color soup in which we swim is entirely at the mercy of how the manufacturer decides it will look, plus how well or well-not Adobe and Capture One interpret the RAW files. As was mentioned, a color checker solution can bypass all roadblocks to attain accurate color, but for me that's just too much effort, especially when I'm happy with the color I get in Capture One anyway.

[jaapv]

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3 hours ago, hdmesa said:

M10-R default color is probably a simple matter of inheritance from the S3 mother sensor. I've moved up from lower megapixel cameras to 45-50mp cameras in the Canon, Nikon, and Fujifilm world and have never seen a drop in SOOC color saturation.

I would call M10-R color cinematic rather than the broad-brush of saying there are merely saturation differences.

There is no default colour out of camera, as the colour is determined by the postprocessing software - and that can - and should- be refined by the user...

[hdmesa]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

There is no default colour out of camera, as the colour is determined by the postprocessing software - and that can - and should- be refined by the user...

Yes, that’s what I meant by default color — the color as seen with the post-processing software with the default profile. As for the “default” of what Leica intends it to look like, that’s the embedded JPEG preview in the DNG that we see on the camera LCD - or the JPEG SOOC with no changes made to the JPEG output in the in-camera menu.

Edited March 11, 2021 by hdmesa

[jaapv]

Yes, but my point is that the "default colour" is just what the software designer makes it, and is basically a user-determined setting, in some cases  (e.g.Lightroom-ACR) a camera-specific user choice, so there is no way to differentiate between cameras in this respect.

[hdmesa]

10 hours ago, jaapv said:

Yes, but my point is that the "default colour" is just what the software designer makes it, and is basically a user-determined setting, in some cases  (e.g.Lightroom-ACR) a camera-specific user choice, so there is no way to differentiate between cameras in this respect.

Agreed. Do we know if the SOOC JPEGs are Leica's "carefree neutral" starting point, or do they convey a preferred aesthetic from Leica? Just wondering out loud if they have ever commented directly on the idea.

[hdmesa]

M10-R replacement arrived today for the exchange of the M10-P Reporter (shredding Kevlar issue). Wow, what a difference. Love the 40mp resolution. Photos are razor sharp with the 50 Summicron-M.

As long as you bump up Auto ISO max and set the shutter speed equation to the next higher setting, there should be no issues getting sharp shots unless you're mashing on the shutter button with a caffeine-induced jackhammer finger. The advice I read on this forum to make sure and flat-pad-of-the-finger-slowly-push the shutter button versus fingertip-straight-down makes a HUGE difference! But anyway, the M default max of ISO 1600 plus the default shutter speed equation are a recipe for blurred shots.

Rangefinder is spot on for focus at f2 on the 50 Summicron-M. Focus peaking was fine on the M10-P, but it seems to get in the way of seeing perfect focus at 40mp and turning it off was a big improvement, at least for wide open at close distance.

This is my first black M, and the finish surprised me in a good way. It's much softer/matte in look and feel, and it's much more pleasing than the finish on the Q2M (which is nice, but a bit boring and smooth by comparison). I was also pleasantly surprised with how flat the Leica red dot was. Not sure why, but in my mind, I've always perceived the red dot in photos as being slightly dome-shaped, like a ladybug soft shutter release button, which it is not 😂

The M10-R's exposure metering combined with the gamma curve Leica applies to the M10-R is so much better than the M10/P. Not having to remember to not kill the highlights is one less thing to get in the way of the simplified user experience of the M. Maybe some see the M as more complicated, something that you have to give more thought to, but I kind of see it the opposite way, especially with the R. I grew up using film cameras with the exact same controls, so this camera seems simple to me versus using my R5, which can often feel like playing Star Trek 3D chess with a Vulcan.

I haven't shot enough with the M10-R to fully know what the image character/tonality/color-signature will be, but the first few SOOC shots (with JPEG sharpness and saturation set to max) look very close to my Canon R5 images, which I like very much (especially considering that color is being delivered by the older design of the 50 Summicron-M).

I think the M10-R with a 21/50/90 combo just might be my own personal holy grail for a small, lightweight landscape field kit.

My advice for anyone considering both is go straight to the R and never look back. If you get blurred shots on the R, you simply need to raise your shutter speed and/or improve your shooting technique. If you already have the M10/M10-P, I would still wait for the M11, especially if an improved Visoflex is coming that will only work with the M11.

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[LPettigrew]

It seems the R is a no-brainer in 2021. Personally I'm considering selling my beloved M10 and switching to R too.

[Bikie John]

That is interesting Steven, thanks for sharing.

I have been wondering about this, prompted by a comment buried deep in another thread somewhere. I wonder if some of the problems that you were seeing with the M10-R were due to "shutter shock" rather than simply the higher resolution. This seems to be something that commonly most affects exposures in the 1/60 to 1/125 range, it is to do with vibrations from the shutter mechanism. At slower speeds it doesn't show up because there is a more exposure not affected and at higher speeds there is not enough time to move. Maybe your particular M10-R had a slightly sticky shutter which made it specially prone to this.

John

[Bikie John]

Very strange. How boring life would be without its mysteries

John

[Jeff S]

23 minutes ago, Steven said:

My second observation, right after the gorgeous image it produces, is that, like with my M10P, I can easily shoot at 1/60th of a second and get incredibly sharp results, something I couldn't do in my wildest dreams with my M10R. Ha ! Go figure ! 

 

You’re at least the third person mentioning this.  Makes no sense to me, given the same sensor and tech without Bayer Array, unless different shooting circumstances or viewing magnification (or less coffee).

 

Jeff

[anickpick]

I get consistently very good results with the M10R as follows:

- 28mm lens: 1/60
- 35mm lens: 1/90
- 50mm lens: 1/125
- 75mm lens: 1/180

[NigelG]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

At this point, I can assure you that it's a general issue on the M10R. Those who don't run into this problem simply don't have the same shooting style than me. They must be very slow shooters. Spot a landscape, stop your feet, take your stance, compose, focus, hold with two hands, breath in, stop breathing, stay immobile, and press the shutter, then breathe out. I am more of a run and gun shooter. No still life. 

Just a tip from a target rifle shooter : Relax, breathe OUT, shoot, HOLD, breathe IN.

[Tailwagger]

14 minutes ago, anickpick said:

I get consistently very good results with the M10R as follows:

- 28mm lens: 1/60
- 35mm lens: 1/90
- 50mm lens: 1/125
- 75mm lens: 1/180

As am I for over nine months and at lower speeds than referenced. No noticeable difference in camera shake between the 10 and R in my experience.

Edited March 17, 2021 by Tailwagger

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[anickpick]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Tailwagger:

As am I for over nine months and at lower speeds then referenced. No noticeable difference in camera shake between the the 10 and R in my experience.

I do go lower too sometimes. I did some boring test shots. The mentioned speeds ensure 9 to 10 sharp pictures out of 10. 

In my experience there is a slight difference. In order to get similar sharp results, 1/60 with a 50mm on the M10P requires approx. 1/90 on the M10R.

[ravinj]

An interesting experiment may be to convert M10-R shot to B&W and see if it is more blurred at 1/60 compared to same scene with M10M, i.e., is the blurriness more visible in color? Multiple shots to rule out that random hand tremor.

Obviously assuming one has access to both cameras.

I am tempted by the M10-R, but this thread is giving me a pause. 

Edited March 17, 2021 by ravinj