Leica discontinues CCD (M9 and Variants) sensor production

[Kwesi]

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Leica has replaced M9 sensors for free, charged for M9 sensor replacements and has now run out of replacement sensors. Even though M9 is not an analog camera, it has PLENTY of life left in it. Time to stop complaining that Leica has misled you.

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[capelini61]

1 hour ago, Kwesi said:

Leica has replaced M9 sensors for free, charged for M9 sensor replacements and has now run out of replacement sensors. Even though M9 is not an analog camera, it has PLENTY of life left in it. Time to stop complaining that Leica has misled you.

I understand your point of view, but it's easy when everything goes well, in my case the first sensor was replaced early by another sensor of the same generation that lasted a few years and failed, I consider myself entitled to have my M9 working, too bad not Leica.

[jaapv]

On 9/2/2020 at 3:13 PM, Ko.Fe. said:

I don't understand "do not buy Leica" statements either. To me this topic about Leica promise of "M9 as lifetime camera" and its failure. And how to avoid such failures. Making cameras modular and even allowing third party components is the way to keep camera as "lifetime camera".

And incredibly (far beyond "Leica Prices") expensive... The present Leicas are for a large part third party components anyway. The problems occur when third-parties discontinue the production.

As  for "don't buy Leica" I find it equally silly as you do. What are you going to buy then? A D6 @ 7300 Euro? And expect to get that one serviced after a decade?

[carbon_dragon]

People thought for years they were going to be able to build a digital "module" for film cameras and it failed time after time (probably more for business reasons than technical, though technical reasons were probably significant too). But there WAS a camera with a modular system with lens "modules" and sensor "modules" but I'll be darned if I can remember what brand it was. It didn't catch on because it had too many downsides to that upside. 

It's not just 3rd parties dictating their production either, yes that is a problem, but you can't run an electronic production line forever and you can't just make more parts when you need to. The modular idea DOES work. Think about PCs with graphics cards, memory cards, network cards, hard drives, SSDs, and so on. But even so, those PCs go obsolete too because the "backbone" of the machine gets so dated it can't take the new parts. Yes, Leica could make a M9R (like the M10R) but probably not enough M9 owners would upgrade to the new sensor so they probably couldn't make it a viable proposition. 

To get beyond this probably isn't impossible but it probably would be expensive. If your M9 became a doorstop now (I'm hoping mine keeps working), would you pay $3-4K to upgrade to an M9R with a better sensor (say a 30MP sensor or something) and maybe a few other cool upgrades like rear screen and so on OR would you rather pay $5200 for an M10 used? I think the path Leica has chosen is to wait till Leica buyers realize that things have changed. Their Ms might last a very long time, but they may not and there isn't any guarantee past say 10 years. Leica will not go to extraordinary and expensive means to keep those old digital Ms working. Maybe Leica owners will keep buying anyway. Maybe they won't. But even if they don't, they have the Qs and CLs, and SLs to fall back on. Or maybe the Ms will just get more cheaply produced with materials that match the lifespan of the electronics -- still GREAT, but maybe at lower prices. 

I guess I've been convinced over time that the idea of my M10 not lasting 15 years or 20 years in service is sad but inevitable. 

[pgk]

Fuji S2Pro - cost (2002) ~£1800 - value today ~£50 perhaps, if still working (very few are)

Leica M8 - cost (2006) ~£2600 - value/cost today ~ £800-£1000+ (dealers are still asking over £1k for them, I've just found a couple in the UK).

M9s are still going for over £2k if the sensor has been replaced. Oh yes, and my Canon 1DS would be virtually worthless today too if I still had it.

Reality is such a pain!

[jaapv]

14 minutes ago, carbon_dragon said:

People thought for years they were going to be able to build a digital "module" for film cameras and it failed time after time (probably more for business reasons than technical, though technical reasons were probably significant too). But there WAS a camera with a modular system with lens "modules" and sensor "modules" but I'll be darned if I can remember what brand it was. It didn't catch on because it had too many downsides to that upside. 

It's not just 3rd parties dictating their production either, yes that is a problem, but you can't run an electronic production line forever and you can't just make more parts when you need to. The modular idea DOES work. Think about PCs with graphics cards, memory cards, network cards, hard drives, SSDs, and so on. But even so, those PCs go obsolete too because the "backbone" of the machine gets so dated it can't take the new parts. Yes, Leica could make a M9R (like the M10R) but probably not enough M9 owners would upgrade to the new sensor so they probably couldn't make it a viable proposition. 

To get beyond this probably isn't impossible but it probably would be expensive. If your M9 became a doorstop now (I'm hoping mine keeps working), would you pay $3-4K to upgrade to an M9R with a better sensor (say a 30MP sensor or something) and maybe a few other cool upgrades like rear screen and so on OR would you rather pay $5200 for an M10 used? I think the path Leica has chosen is to wait till Leica buyers realize that things have changed. Their Ms might last a very long time, but they may not and there isn't any guarantee past say 10 years. Leica will not go to extraordinary and expensive means to keep those old digital Ms working. Maybe Leica owners will keep buying anyway. Maybe they won't. But even if they don't, they have the Qs and CLs, and SLs to fall back on. Or maybe the Ms will just get more cheaply produced with materials that match the lifespan of the electronics -- still GREAT, but maybe at lower prices. 

I guess I've been convinced over time that the idea of my M10 not lasting 15 years or 20 years in service is sad but inevitable. 

Not to mention that if Leica were to find a producer that is willing to produce an M9 sensor clone, the price would be such that a repair would be far more expensive than a replacement used M9.

[mmx_2]

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Has anyone actually asked Kolari if they are not able to replace the cover of the original M9-sensor? This is basically what they do on Sony A7s.

 

[Kwesi]

1 hour ago, capelini61 said:

I understand your point of view, but it's easy when everything goes well, in my case the first sensor was replaced early by another sensor of the same generation that lasted a few years and failed, I consider myself entitled to have my M9 working, too bad not Leica.

Sorry to hear that and I apologize if I sounded flippant. Were you eligible to have the second sensor replaced or did the sensor corrosion occur after the program had ended?

[jaapv]

17 minutes ago, mmx_2 said:

Has anyone actually asked Kolari if they are not able to replace the cover of the original M9-sensor? This is basically what they do on Sony A7s.

 

Or convert the camera to IR, although that does not seem to be very simple - the thin cover glass poses a problem.

[mmx_2]

20 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Or convert the camera to IR, although that does not seem to be very simple - the thin cover glass poses a problem.

They replied instantly:

”

Hello Joakim,

This is something we are looking into now, and believe we can do it. We have not had a chance to work on a corroded sensor version yet, if you are interested we can try it on yours free of charge. 

Best,”

 

unfortunately ours are already updated with the new sensor. But I strongly suggest that someone tries this:).

[martinot]

On 8/7/2020 at 7:40 PM, mmx_2 said:

I guess value of cameras without the new sensor will plummet...

Even those with sensor replacement seems to have had some problems, so I would stay away from those as well. Seems that this sensor is followed by a bit of bad luck for Leica.

[pgk]

1 minute ago, martinot said:

Even those with sensor replacement seems to have had some problems....

As far as I aware only those which had the sensor replaced with the same one. Not the later sensor.

[martinot]

On 8/8/2020 at 2:53 PM, carbon_dragon said:

Am I the only one who thinks Leica should come up with some kind of accommodation for M9 owners (even though it's not legally obliged to)? Why should they? Because people buy and keep Leicas for longer and that is part of how they justify the cost. Like a reasonably priced upgrade path, or a new sensor that fits in the camera, or something. Otherwise someone shopping for a M10R right now will think to themselves, Hmmm... I guess Leica is just like all the other brands with only maintaining repair capability for maybe a decade. Maybe it's not a good idea to spend that premium a price when I can get something cheaper. Sure the Leica is made better, but the case is meaningless without the sensor so the great workmanship isn't as important.

I agree that ideally they should do. 

That said I think they have a quite generous trade in offer for M9 owners with problematic sensors wanting a new M10R camera. 

[martinot]

1 minute ago, pgk said:

As far as I aware only those which had the sensor replaced with the same one. Not the later sensor.

Read about problems with cracked sensor glass on the new sensor version (without fungus problem). Perhaps replacing the sensor and sensor pack/glass was a a bit of a rushed "quick fix" that did not get the usual QA and massive testing time that normally is done on new sensor development?

[pgk]

Well, I haven't seen such comments myself and since I have 2 x M9s with replaced sensors I would have expected to have picked up on it if it was a bid problem.

[martinot]

On 8/12/2020 at 3:15 PM, carbon_dragon said:

Yes that was kind of my point. My 5d is still fully functional too. "Regular" camera manufacturers make pretty long lived cameras and tough ones too, and they do it without $8000 price tags. Granted Leicas are works of art in many ways with hand crafting and fine mechanical precision, and so on. There are certainly Canon Ps and Nikon rangefinders still working too, but MOST Leicas from that period are still functional (or at least a heck of a lot of them). I think Leica takes pride in cameras living longer than their owners and not just one or two but most of them. It's a mindset you can embrace when the camera is all mechanical (much as we embrace it with mechanical watches). But once you add electronics, well you can't make new electronic components once the production line stops. 

What do you do if you're Leica and you take pride in your cameras outliving their owners? Do you give up on that notion and still make cameras that SHOULD last that long but won't because what is inside will fail long before the  outer shell? Or do you do crazy things to keep up the spirit of that long life (like upgrading camera internals)? I expect they will quietly transition to letting those Ms slowly become shelf queens when there are no more electronic parts from the original cameras. 

I understand your point. Leicas well build cameras made for long mechanical life did make good sense in the film age, but not so much in rapidly advancing digital age. 

This is something that Leica needs to address sooner or later (possibly the first).

Maybe they can come up with a body and an exchangeable sensor module (just like old Hasselblad with digital backs, or how Ricoh did it in their GXR)?

 

[martinot]

On 8/10/2020 at 11:52 PM, capelini61 said:

I totally agree with your comment, how many other customers are in the same situation as me; the second sensor replaced is corroded. My M9 no longer exists.

I think you should consider the trade in deal from Leica.

[martinot]

29 minutes ago, pgk said:

Well, I haven't seen such comments myself and since I have 2 x M9s with replaced sensors I would have expected to have picked up on it if it was a bid problem.

Have read about it also here on this forum. Will see if I can find any of those posts.

(Two cameras might be much for you personally, but from a statistical point of view it is really not.)

Edited September 3, 2020 by martinot

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[martinot]

On 8/9/2020 at 2:15 PM, rivi1969 said:

Leica should have to know exactly how many cameras they produced with faulty sensors and have enough spares for them. 

Hopefully they have ordered and bought as much sensors they could before end of production, but I would not bet on it personally if I owned a M9 (M-E).

[pippy]

1 hour ago, martinot said:

Even those with sensor replacement seems to have had some problems.

Not the 2nd. Gen. sensor cover glass; only those replacements which were undertaken before the new cover glass was introduced in mid 2015.

Philip.