Mechanical / analogue, is it nostalgia or is there more?

[Ko.Fe.]

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10 hours ago, poli said:

Recently I bought an M4. I ran into one at my local camera store. I tried it, my gf was shaking her head... and I bought it. 😀 

My other camera is an M10-d. So no screen. Leica says: digital with analog soul? Something like that. that’s just marketing. 
The main reason for buying the D was not very rational. It was a feeling. These days almost everything has a screen. I am simply getting tired of it. We are screen focused. Especially regarding smartphones. But even fridges ‘need’ a screen. We think the solution for many non existing problems is a screen. For me, my camera is something to enjoy. And I simply enjoy this camera more than the model with screen. Others do enjoy a screen. Or a digital vf. Etc. Each to their own. 
But the M4, although in some respects old fashioned and maybe impractical, so far seems to be even more enjoyable. Apart from no screen. There is no battery. It’s purely mechanical. It feels even nicer. Combined with the restriction of film gives another feeling to the process of taking pictures. 
I do not know if that’s nostalgia. Maybe? But why trying to rationalize these choices? Simply enjoy it if you are lucky enough to own one or any (Leica) camera. Happy shooting! 

Where are several cameras on the market with no screen functionality. You flip the screen inside of the camera and remaining controls are sufficient. Canon R, Rebels, 6D MKII, Olympus Pen F and so on.  Via oVF, eVF and control dials. 

As for M4, I have seen photography taken with film M and other no batteries cameras during lengthy, remote trips like through Mongolia on the horses. No batteries film camera is still perfect for it, no dinking with solar panels on the horse :). 

Heck, even for my work commute, no batteries cameras is great. I don't have to carry on spare batteries, charge them and so on. Some times I have single film in my film camera for weeks. 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Ko.Fe.

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[ianman]

16 hours ago, david strachan said:

Think never the twains will meet.

The twains have met and are alive and well, in my house anyway. I will use a film or digital M depending on what I'm doing and sometimes on my mood. I quite enjoy developing and scanning (I don't have easy access to a darkroom) but really hate spending much time buggering about in post-processing activities. 

[Steve Ricoh]

5 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

... Some times I have single film in my film camera for weeks. 

Don’t know how you manage it. 🤣 Sometimes (mostly?) I  have a film partly exposed for 12 months, or longer. Currently: 12+ months in my Pen F, about the same in the MX, 10 months in the Rollie 35, and 5 or 6 months in the FM2. With digital you can pop the memory card whenever you wish, even after 1 frame if that’s all you’ve shot on an outing.

 

[Jeff S]

On 7/2/2020 at 5:32 PM, pippy said:

As 99% of my digi-snaps have always been rendered / printed as monochrome images the colour management side of things isn't a bother!

 

Color management principles apply just as well to a digital black and white workflow. Colors translate to tones, and creating and maintaining those tonal relationships at capture and across devices, and papers, can be important.

Jeff

Edited July 4, 2020 by Jeff S

[Ko.Fe.]

1 hour ago, Steve Ricoh said:

Don’t know how you manage it. 🤣 Sometimes (mostly?) I  have a film partly exposed for 12 months, or longer. Currently: 12+ months in my Pen F, about the same in the MX, 10 months in the Rollie 35, and 5 or 6 months in the FM2. With digital you can pop the memory card whenever you wish, even after 1 frame if that’s all you’ve shot on an outing.

 

Sometimes I manage digital as film. I slip it into card reader if it was long enough. I have bunch of digital cameras and I accumulate images on them for months.  

You don't need M-D to have no display and use M mode. You don't need to insert, look at every frame either.

[Steve Ricoh]

2 minutes ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Sometimes I manage digital as film. I slip it into card reader if it was long enough. I have bunch of digital cameras and I accumulate images on them for months.  

You don't need M-D to have no display and use M mode. You don't need to insert, look at every frame either.

I know if it’s vaguely worth popping the card after one or five frames because I’ve chimped, obviously. 😂

[pippy]

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1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

Color management principles apply just as well to a digital black and white workflow. Colors translate to tones, and creating and maintaining those tonal relationships at capture and across devices, and papers, can be important.

Thank you, Jeff, and I appreciate the thought. I was simply trying to keep my reply short.

I'm very acutely aware (and that's putting it mildly!) that when printing monochrome images using different paper stock it creates all sorts of problems in terms of tone-curves, tonal warmth and so-on to the extent that I create separate files of my most frequently printed images for different paper-stocks; i.e. I will have one for Hahnemuhle, another for Canson etc...etc....in fact it's pretty much the same trial and error process as I used to go through in my wet-print days regarding Agfa Record-Rapid / Ilford Galerie which are then processed in different developers for different end-results.

So it's just like being back in the dark-room......but without the smell of cat-pee.

Philip.

Edited July 5, 2020 by pippy

[Jeff S]

8 minutes ago, pippy said:

Thank you, Jeff, and I appreciate the thought. I was simply trying to keep my reply short.

I'm very acutely aware (and that's putting it mildly!) that when printing monochrome images using different paper stock it creates all sorts of problems in terms of tone-curves, tonal warmth and so-on to the extent that I create separate files of my most frequently printed images for different paper-stocks; i.e. I will have one for Hahnemuhle, another for Canson etc...etc....in fact it's pretty much the same trial and error process as I used to go through in my wet-print days regarding Agfa Record-Rapid / Ilford Galerie which are then processed in different developers for different end-results.

So it's just like being back in the dark-room......but without the smell of cat-pee.

Philip.

Indeed, and also color management at every step of the workflow, from capture to monitor calibration, to paper profiles, to editing and soft proofing for papers as well as different display lighting conditions, etc, etc.  Only the tools have changed since darkroom days (which I don’t miss).

Jeff

[alwinvrm]

A lot of interesting things to read here. In my initial post I wanted to share the unexpected joy I felt, when using an M that happened to have film it after 12 years of digital only. It appears I am not alone.

In the event that chimping is regarded as obsessive compulsive behaviour that is in the way of more worthy things, it is not different from dieting. Just don't buy chocolate or ice cream, just don't. If stronger measure are necessary, a camera without a screen may be an option.

However, the more you trust your camera and your ability to operate it, the less there is a practical need to chimp. I am sure many here remember that when operating a film camera with a film we were used to, we already knew what the negatives would look like at the moment we pressed the button.

Having said that I find the ability to chimp very useful with new multi light studio set ups or so. It also makes life easier when you experiment. I would say that the immediate feedback of chimping is useful for beginners as well. Although, when I speak with the friends of my youngest son, they wonder how you dial a number on my Xpro. Meaning that wanting to learn photography probably requires a different way of seeing than the casual glance on a phone screen we do countless times each day.

[Steve Ricoh]

I would add that chiming is a very useful means to review exposure, and if necessary retake the exposure corrected as necessary, subject permitting of course. Lazy maybe; not conducive to learning, maybe. 

[Stealth3kpl]

13 hours ago, pippy said:

but without the smell of cat-pee

I'm not that keen on cats so I prefer to think of it as my pee.

Pete

[pippy]

By way of some clarification;

Contrary to the impression I might have given in earlier posts I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against reviewing an image on a rear-screen. I have done it myself a great many times in the past and, with my Monochrom, still do if I feel it's going to be useful or helpful. In my professional life as a studio still-life snapper in the film era I used Polaroid for checking every shot and, nowadays, in the digital age I always shoot tethered in order to check every single image I take for composition, colour-balance, lighting, focus etc. In other words "Chimping".

Before acquiring the M-D I had seven/eight years of being able to review exposures with M8.2 / M9 / M9-P and did so; often to begin with although this lessened after I had understood how the meter and framing behaved in the majority of different light situations. And yes; latterly I did switch the screen off 99% of the time but more as a way of conserving battery-charge than anything else.

For anyone new to Leica and/or possibly new to photography reviewing an image is pretty much the best way to learn how 'everything' works once a working understanding of the fundamentals has been achieved.

There is nothing Elitist about having / using an M-D nor an M10-D; these cameras merely offer a rather different shooting experience to the usual digi-M way of life and it just so happens to be one which I prefer over the alternatives on offer. Most of the time.

That's it.

Philip.

Edited July 5, 2020 by pippy

[Norman Peritore]

On 7/2/2020 at 8:54 AM, Prosophos said:

I burst out laughing as I read this -- not because I disagree, but because I sympathize completely (just never thought to word it that way, ha ha). 

I've been trying to convince myself to get a discounted mint M10-M that has unexpectedly appeared for sale locally, but no matter how hard I try I can't seem to convince myself that any of the Mono models produce output superior to B&W film. 

I got into some sort of trouble 7 years ago -- more precisely, was accused of being delusional -- for writing an open letter to Leica to help save the M9 sensor, so I guess the delusion extends to film too.

Anyway, carry on.

―Peter.

My father left me 4 R lenses and a Leicaflex, but I've gone to the R4, after a decade with M's. R lenses are amazing in cinematic picture quality, and of course film has a much broader range of light and color capture than sensors. Film grain is aesthetic, M grain around 650 ISO is ugly. The R cameras have a wonderful eye relief that I dont find with M's. Film is undergoing a world renaissance with this new generation, with at least 5 plants in production, and Leica/Panasonic should produce  something akin to an R camera for this movement. It does not need fancy electronics, and should come at a price that ordinary mortals can afford...the benefit is that Leica will sell M,L, and R lenses, if it gives adaptors, and Leica should partner with Ilford, Kodak, etc to get discounts on film, and on monobath developing kits. I still use M or sony a7rii (unnecessarily complicated) to photograph rapid moving carnaval. One benefit  of film capture, is that it needs less processing in post...I wasted a lot of time with digital correcting problems introduced by the digital sensors. Film costs more, but you shoot less and better photos with a lot more planning and thought. The downside, last time I ws in a darkroom in the 80s, I ended up with a rash on both arms...hmmm

[105012]

1 hour ago, Norman Peritore said:

... One benefit  of film capture, is that it needs less processing in post...I wasted a lot of time with digital correcting problems introduced by the digital sensors. Film costs more, but you shoot less and better photos with a lot more planning and thought. The downside, last time I ws in a darkroom in the 80s, I ended up with a rash on both arms...hmmm

Metol may cause contact dermatitis for some people, using a metol-free developer (like HC-110 or Ilford HC) is one way to solve it (and besides HC is a great developer in my experience).

[sblitz]

3 hours ago, Norman Peritore said:

My father left me 4 R lenses and a Leicaflex, but I've gone to the R4, after a decade with M's. R lenses are amazing in cinematic picture quality, and of course film has a much broader range of light and color capture than sensors. Film grain is aesthetic, M grain around 650 ISO is ugly. The R cameras have a wonderful eye relief that I dont find with M's. Film is undergoing a world renaissance with this new generation, with at least 5 plants in production, and Leica/Panasonic should produce  something akin to an R camera for this movement. It does not need fancy electronics, and should come at a price that ordinary mortals can afford...the benefit is that Leica will sell M,L, and R lenses, if it gives adaptors, and Leica should partner with Ilford, Kodak, etc to get discounts on film, and on monobath developing kits. I still use M or sony a7rii (unnecessarily complicated) to photograph rapid moving carnaval. One benefit  of film capture, is that it needs less processing in post...I wasted a lot of time with digital correcting problems introduced by the digital sensors. Film costs more, but you shoot less and better photos with a lot more planning and thought. The downside, last time I ws in a darkroom in the 80s, I ended up with a rash on both arms...hmmm

Buy yourself an R6 or R6.2 (I have this one), and you will have the no battery equivalent (except for the meter).

[malligator]

I'm not sure I can say it's nostalgic for me. I spent most of my life in the film era, but I wasn't a photographer for any of it. My dad had a film SLR, but I don't even remember what it was. I sold it shortly after he passed away in 1991. Fast forward to 2016 when I got the photography bug from a couple of friends with nice Canon DSLRs. I bought a whole Nikon D810 setup and I fiddled and futzed with it for a few years. I kept buying new gear hoping my photos would magically improve.I thought I was doing the right thing. I was buying the best gear and learning every setting, knob, dial, and button. I had Lightroom and Photoshop. Four years later I don't really have anything to show for it. I have lots of snapshots that I enjoy, but in that time I have just as many taken with my phone.

I finally bit the bullet last week and did what I've been wanting to do for years. I bought an M-A, a 50/1.4 Lux ASPH, and some film. I'm enjoying slowing down and making every frame count. I'm enjoying learning to read light and use Sunny 16. Just this morning, over the course of a few hours, I learned that what looked like the same Seattle overcast day had changed by two stops (per my handheld meter). I tried to figure out what had changed. It was still overcast with no discernible shadows just as before. I then realized that, unlike earlier, I was squinting. Going forward I will know to look for subtle changes--internally and externally. I've learned tons of small things like over the past eight days.

Anyway, mastering the fundamentals and focusing on the image instead of the gear is turning out to be more enjoyable than I had imagined. That's not something I can directly attribute to film, but I can credit it to having a meterless, manual, mechanical camera which doesn't exist except in the film domain. 

[alwinvrm]

On 7/10/2020 at 8:53 AM, malligator said:

....

Anyway, mastering the fundamentals and focusing on the image instead of the gear is turning out to be more enjoyable than I had imagined. That's not something I can directly attribute to film, but I can credit it to having a meterless, manual, mechanical camera which doesn't exist except in the film domain. 

That is interesting. You would say that the more you are free from the craft (= the camera does everything), the more you feel free to make the art. (I write 'art' here in a general sense of producing something that pleases, no pretensions.)

Apparently for many of us - including me - it doesn't work that way. It seems that the discipline of properly and consciously executing the craft, somehow helps the art. I called it intensity in my initial post.

Anyway, I am now fully into my film Leica's, going to buy a 28mm, and the decision whether to get into digital Leica's will depend on my conclusions in the coming month or so. Maybe the rangefinder in a digital M is enough to give me the experience I want, maybe I need the whole rangefinder + film experience for reasons I don't know yet. It will be an unexpected but interesting self exploration after 10+ years of digital. We will see.

Edited July 15, 2020 by alwinvrm
art is a difficult word

[rivi1969]

I had a "nostalgia episode" like a year ago that I can resume in 8 steps:

1. Bought a Contax 139 with a Zeiss 50mm.

2. Drive 30 minutes to the only store in town to buy over-priced film.

3. Drive back home and shoot the film.

4. Drive back to the store to leave the film for processing.

5. Drive back home.

6. Drive back to the store for the negs to learn one of the rolls was not properly loaded and the other shots look okeish LOL.

7. Put the camera back on sale.

8. Grab my Leica M8 & M9 and enjoy.

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Look here: Leica M

[alwinvrm]

11 minutes ago, rivi1969 said:

I had a "nostalgia episode" like a year ago that I can resume in 8 steps:

1. Bought a Contax 139 with a Zeiss 50mm.

2. Drive 30 minutes to the only store in town to buy over-priced film.

3. Drive back home and shoot the film.

4. Drive back to the store to leave the film for processing.

5. Drive back home.

6. Drive back to the store for the negs to learn one of the rolls was not properly loaded and the other shots look okeish LOL.

7. Put the camera back on sale.

8. Grab my Leica M8 & M9 and enjoy.

I expect my 'nostalgia problem' to last a bit longer. I have years of nostalgic photography behind me, so my problem may be more serious 😃

[malligator]

4 hours ago, alwinvrm said:

That is interesting. You would say that the more you are free from the craft (= the camera does everything), the more you feel free to make the art. (I write 'art' here in a general sense of producing something that pleases, no pretensions.)

Apparently for many of us - including me - it doesn't work that way. It seems that the discipline of properly and consciously executing the craft, somehow helps the art. I called it intensity in my initial post.

Anyway, I am now fully into my film Leica's, going to buy a 28mm, and the decision whether to get into digital Leica's will depend on my conclusions in the coming month or so. Maybe the rangefinder in a digital M is enough to give me the experience I want, maybe I need the whole rangefinder + film experience for reasons I don't know yet. It will be an unexpected but interesting self exploration after 10+ years of digital. We will see.

I think you may have misunderstood me, and I certainly don't discount the idea that it's because I was confusing. "Mastering the fundamentals" has two keywords. 'Fundamentals' may connote simplicity, but you don't 'master' anything without proper and conscious execution.

I'm enjoying the craft more precisely because the camera doesn't do anything. So far I've only seen one roll of film, and, all in all, the pictures are exposed reasonably well, the focus is good, and there's no rookie mistakes like camera shake. The photos themselves could never be called art, but they show that I at least have a general sense of subject and composition. Basically--to use your definition--they are generally pleasing, at least to me and my partner.

The camera didn't do any of that. The only automatic feature on my M-A is the frame counter. By contrast, my copy of Thom Hogan's Complete Guide to the Nikon D810 and D810A is 956 pages that completely covers everything about the camera (and almost nothing about photography).

I've never been so intensely (to use your word) aware of my photography until I had to read the light and set my own exposure and focus.

 

*****

None of this is to say that there is anything wrong with modern digital cameras. I just get lost in the weeds so I'm enjoying my M-A more. I still have the DSLR and I have no doubt I'm already better at using it after having used the M-A.

*****