Digital M Vs Analog M

[colint544]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 4/19/2021 at 2:05 PM, 01af said:

Actually, it's recommended to keep the shutter cocked always. It doesn't make any difference to the springs and it's better for the cloth shutter curtains. Plus, you won't miss a shot due to uncocked shutter. So — firing and re-cocking the shutter should be considered one single atomic action.

I'm intrigued, I've not heard this before. Are you able to say why it's better for the shutter curtains?

I'm in the habit of not leaving the shutters on my film M cameras cocked, mainly because I end up with occasional blank frames otherwise. When I pick the camera up to use it, I just automatically wind it on.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[01af]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb colint544:

I've not heard this before.

Neither have I—until a Leica service technician in Wetzlar told me.

.

vor 13 Stunden schrieb colint544:

Are you able to say why it's better for the shutter curtains?

Not really, sorry. It has to do with the way the cloth curtains get rolled up on their spools in cocked and released state.

[IkarusJohn]

This is one of my petty bug bears - there’s no lock on the Leica film M shutter (unlike the film advance on the Nikon F cameras). Easy with the Nikon - cock the advance lever and take a picture. With the M-A, pull the camera out of the bag, and you get a blank image … Grrrr

With the M9Monochrom, I turn the camera off between shots. With the M-A, I advance the film as I bring the camera up. A habit I don’t think I’ll change. We were always told with SLRs not to advance the film after each shot - also for reasons I can’t recall. 

My partner’s late father (a professional photographer) also left the last exposure blank, just incase something happened …
 

 

[01af]

Am 26.4.2021 um 22:19 schrieb colint544:

Are you able to say why it's better for the shutter curtains?

Now I remember again:

The reason why keeping the camera cocked is better for the shutter curtains is the diameter of the spools where the curtains get rolled up. When cocked, the first curtain is flat before the film gate and the second is rolled up on a thick spool to the gate's right-hand side (as seen from the photographer's position behind the camera). When released, the first curtain is rolled up on a thin spool to the left and the second is rolled out flat.

Being rolled up tightly on a thin spool means more stress on the cloth. So in cocked state, the cloth will rest easier.

That said, the difference between the two states isn't too significant. The cloth won't fall into pieces after being rolled up for a while on the thinner spool. But if you wonder what's better for the camera, be it by just a tiny margin—that's your answer.

Of course, for metal-blade focal-plane shutters, such as in the digital Leica M cameras, cocked vs released doesn't make any difference to the curtains. But then, the digital cameras won't give you any choice—they always will re-cock after the shot immediately. And that's what you should do with the analog cameras as well.

[colint544]

18 hours ago, 01af said:

Now I remember again:

The reason why keeping the camera cocked is better for the shutter curtains is the diameter of the spools where the curtains get rolled up. When cocked, the first curtain is flat before the film gate and the second is rolled up on a thick spool to the gate's right-hand side (as seen from the photographer's position behind the camera). When released, the first curtain is rolled up on a thin spool to the left and the second is rolled out flat.

Being rolled up tightly on a thin spool means more stress on the cloth. So in cocked state, the cloth will rest easier.

That said, the difference between the two states isn't too significant. The cloth won't fall into pieces after being rolled up for a while on the thinner spool. But if you wonder what's better for the camera, be it by just a tiny margin—that's your answer.

Of course, for metal-blade focal-plane shutters, such as in the digital Leica M cameras, cocked vs released doesn't make any difference to the curtains. But then, the digital cameras won't give you any choice—they always will re-cock after the shot immediately. And that's what you should do with the analog cameras as well.

That's very interesting, and thank you for such a fulsome response. I'm never done learning things Leica-related on this forum!

[Dennis]

As many already said. Personally, I set up my M10 for auto sleeping in 10 minutes. But when I'm carrying the camera, I may be half-press every two-three minutes, as an unconditional reflex to wake it up, also if it's not necessary. It looks like muscle memory, but I do that every time I'm interested in a shot or preparing for it.
For example, you are walking toward a bridge, and maybe one wants to take many photos from different angles. While approaching, walking, and thinking, I half-press the button. This way, I never had a problem. 

Essential: if you are looking for the decisive moment, NEVER turn off the camera. You can disable the auto OFF or enable it, but managing it well to be sure the camera will never sleep when needed.The slow start-up of the M10 is awful, I know. But I'm never concerned about my photos because my M10 is always ready to shoot. And with manual focus, sometimes faster than DSLR. I turn on the camera every time is on a bag, when it's out of it, well... Good morning sleepyhead, but now go to work 😆

[Narsuitus]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

On 5/26/2020 at 7:16 PM, Joe T said:

... trying to think of something the analog M does better than the digital M10 ...

When I need to grab a camera for quick shot or a quick assignment, provided the M6 is loaded with film, I can count on the M6 being ready. With the M10, provided it is loaded with a memory card, I cannot count on it being ready because I have to worry about the status of the battery.

 

[andybarton]

Surely, provided your M10 is loaded with its “film”, and its battery, it’s as ready as your M6?

The M6 requires a battery for full functionality too.

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, andybarton said:

Surely, provided your M10 is loaded with its “film”, and its battery, it’s as ready as your M6?

The M6 requires a battery for full functionality too.

Many seem to use M6 without the battery, as external meters are likely more reliable. If I had an M6, I would use it without battery, like my M2. Also, if an M6 battery is empty, you replace it. If an M10 battery is empty, you have to charge it first. That is why I always try to have a fully charged M10 spare battery.

[martinot]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

Many seem to use M6 without the battery, as external meters are likely more reliable. If I had an M6, I would use it without battery, like my M2. Also, if an M6 battery is empty, you replace it. If an M10 battery is empty, you have to charge it first. That is why I always try to have a fully charged M10 spare battery.

I also think the battery capacity is too low in M10. Could be much better with more modern battery chemistry, without making it larger.

Leica missed a clear opportunity here; they could easily have retained the capacity from previous digital M cameras, but in the smaller size.

 

[adan]

31 minutes ago, martinot said:

Leica missed a clear opportunity here; they could easily have retained the capacity from previous digital M cameras, but in the smaller size.

Hmmm - in what "smaller size?" The only M digital battery physically smaller than the M10's is the M8/M9's

M8/M9 Battery (small) - 1860mA•h * 3.5v = 6.8 Watt/hours

M10 Battery (medium size) - 1100 mA•h * 7.4v  = 8.44 Watt/hours

M(typ 240) Battery (large) - 1800 mA•h * 7.4v =  13.32 Watt/hours

The M10 and M (typ 240) operate at a higher voltage. Probably to drive the "quicker" shutter-cocking (up to 5 frames per second) and/or extra features (live-view, EVF, wifi - and in the 240, video/audio)

To get an M8/M9 battery to output 7.4 volts as required by the M10 (and M240) would require increasing its capacity to 2412 mA•h (+77%) - you think that would still fit in the smaller casing?

[jaapv]

On 4/30/2021 at 8:01 PM, Narsuitus said:

I cannot count on it being ready because I have to worry about the status of the battery.

No - you have to worry about the number of shots left on the film...🤪

[IkarusJohn]

The man who would have been my father-in-law (he was killed in a helicopter crash in 1987) never exposed the final frame on a roll of film (he used Rolleiflexes and Mamiyas). He said, you never know if you might need to take that final shot - something might pop up!

[Narsuitus]

9 hours ago, jaapv said:

No - you have to worry about the number of shots left on the film...🤪

No worry - I can change one roll of film in my M6 a lot faster than I can recharge my one battery in my M10.

[jaapv]

Ah - but that assumes you have a spare film - I have a spare battery.

[Narsuitus]

4 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Ah - but that assumes you have a spare film - I have a spare battery.

That is true - I have plenty of spare film. I have not yet been able to afford a spare battery.

[ianman]

19 minutes ago, Narsuitus said:

No worry - I can change one roll of film in my M6 a lot faster than I can recharge my one battery in my M10.

... only to find out the card is full  (which is surely the analogy to use when comparing to film). Quickly finding and changing a film is easy. Fiddling about with little cards to check if there is free storage space is not so quick.

[a.noctilux]

We are all different 😉.

Since decades, lesson learned for me, as long as battery device is used (not only photographic devices ! ), I tend to have one spare battery at hand.

Never know when (and where) the battery needs to be replaced ...

 

If I recall well, when I bought Leicameter MR ( then M5/M6 ), so decades ago, I was happy that I bought as soon as possible spare batteries.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

39 minutes ago, ianman said:

... only to find out the card is full  (which is surely the analogy to use when comparing to film). Quickly finding and changing a film is easy. Fiddling about with little cards to check if there is free storage space is not so quick.

Over 1000 shots on a card? That is a lot of rolls to change...

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

Ah - but that assumes you have a spare film - I have a spare battery.

I have many spare batteries, most of them empty :). I try to have at least one battery fully charged. Occasionally I forget to do it. 
IMO, digital is much more practical, but a film camera without a battery is more relaxing.
The main reason why I shoot digital or analog is practicability vs. film look. Also, those bloody highlights ;-).