Digital M Vs Analog M

[Joe T]

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I've been shooting Leica rangefinders for about 14 years. I have an M3 double-stroke and two M6s. I just recently acquired an M10, and let me tell you, I've been very impressed with it. While trying to think of something the analog M does better than the digital M10, I was unable to, until I went out shooting. There is one very important function the analog Ms do better than any digital M. No matter how long I've been walking and looking for that moment, I can always raise an analog M to my eye, and snap a picture. However, with the digital M on, I have to wait for the digital rangefinder to wakeup before I can snap the picture. There is a better chance of perhaps missing the decisive moment with the digital rangefinder. What work around do some of you use to avoid missing the decisive moment?

Edited May 27, 2020 by Joe T

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[farnz]

I switch my Auto Power Save to off so my M10 doesn't go to sleep.  If I was low on battery then I would revert to 10 or 5 minutes Auto Power Save to help the battery but I normally carry 2 spare batteries with me so that hasn't been a problem in the 3 years or so that I've had the M10.

Pete.

[Joe T]

Thanks farnz. I will give that a shot. I appreciate the feedback. 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Joe T

[Jeff S]

Or, if in ‘sleep’ mode, one can half press the shutter prior to bringing to eye level in any photo-rich environment. The camera is ready by the time it reaches eye level.  One learns this instinctively. Even with power totally off at hip level, turning on while raising the camera, it’s ready in the 2 seconds or less to raise to eye.  Of course I stick to RF only. 😉

Jeff

Edited May 27, 2020 by Jeff S

[david strachan]

Thinking my M8's and M-P are very quick to respond with a firmish touch on the shutter button (Jeff above).  Mine are set to 2 min sleep mode.

If the decisive moment is so important, I'd rather be viewing with expectation, through the RF with focus set, speed and ISO good...and just as the moment breaks...snap.

A decisive moment often repeats itself, or definitely anticipated, and with luck, can be caught with thought.

Good luck Joe...there are many pics which are the "decisive moment"...😉

...

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by david strachan

[Ko.Fe.]

3 hours ago, Joe T said:

However, with the digital M on, I have to wait for the digital rangefinder to wakeup before I can snap the picture. There is a better chance of perhaps missing the decisive moment with the digital rangefinder. What work around do some of you use to avoid missing the decisive moment?

I read camera manual.

[strohscw]

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Well I do it like Jeff, whenever I want to take a picture in the moment I start to lift the camera I half press the shutter button so that it is ready to shoot when I have it at the eye.

This is something You get used to very fast. And, as Pete mentioned I also always have at least one spare battery with me so that I have not to think about saving battery.

One advantage of the digital You forgot: You do not have to change film after every 36th exposure. With the cheap memory cards You can have a "film magazine" for thousands of exposures.

 

Greetings

Wolfram

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by strohscw

[adan]

For me, similar to Jeff's post #4 - except that I turn the camera ON as I start to lift it from hip up to my eye, and it is always "live" by the time I need to fire the shutter, 99% of the time.

At other times, I do use the 5-minute time for auto power-off, and compensate by never using auto-review (and minimize any reviewing while working - LCD draws extra power).

I appreciate your "need," though - the fact an M4-2 did nothing when the shutter was pressed - except take a picture right now - was one of the features that moved me back in time to a 1977 camera, abandoning my fancy-dancy 1999 Contax G2s.

[Joe T]

Thanks guys. I guess this will take some getting used to. As I said before, I've been shooting my M3 and M6s several days a week for over a decade, so in order to change that behavior, it's going to require practice. Great camera though, it has exceeded all of my expectations so far. 

[Kwesi]

2 hours ago, Joe T said:

Thanks guys. I guess this will take some getting used to. As I said before, I've been shooting my M3 and M6s several days a week for over a decade, so in order to change that behavior, it's going to require practice. Great camera though, it has exceeded all of my expectations so far. 

Welcome to the forum Joe T,

I echo Jeff S, Adan and others who gave similar feedback. One way to think of it is that with our film Ms we cock the shutter right after each shot and with our digital Ms we cock the shutter just before each shot. In either case muscle memory kicks in very quickly and it becomes second nature. I have found the M10 to be the most responsive of the digital Ms to date. One quick tip that you may already know - try not to delete images in camera as it turns to slow down the wake up time. Happy to explain why if needed but would rather not drone on...

[Wesselphoto]

I have the same issue with my m10, and before with my M262.

The m10 is slow in startup, the only way to solve it is burning several batteries a day, the startup time has not improved since years of production.

It's slow, very slow.. To few pro's work with Leica today I guess. All other brand camera I have are near instant.  X-pro,  nikon etc. Time for a speed Firmware update ?
The best digital M byfar is the M9 or M9mono in this case, it's Much faster then the later Cmos Leica s. I have all, but for proper response I Take the M9 (or m4😊).

Rgs eddy

 

[farnz]

Welcome to the forum, eddy!

Does burning through one or two batteries a day present a problem or is it, to you, more about comparison with the behaviour of other brands?

Pete.

[Kwesi]

5 hours ago, Wesselphoto said:

I have the same issue with my m10, and before with my M262.

The m10 is slow in startup, the only way to solve it is burning several batteries a day, the startup time has not improved since years of production.

It's slow, very slow.. To few pro's work with Leica today I guess. All other brand camera I have are near instant.  X-pro,  nikon etc. Time for a speed Firmware update ?
The best digital M byfar is the M9 or M9mono in this case, it's Much faster then the later Cmos Leica s. I have all, but for proper response I Take the M9 (or m4😊).

Rgs eddy

 

Deleting images from the card wether in camera or in the computer can create fragmentation which will slow down your start up time.

If that's not the case for you then depending on how slow "slow" is you may have a defective camera.

[Rupert Greenwell]

The slow start up of the M10 and M10M is very annoying and I have often missed the moment.  The M9 Monochrom which I still have is so much quicker, the M 246 Monochrom  and M 262 which I also have are a bit slower than the  M9M but a second faster than M10.  

 I remember when Leica M photographers used to discuss the shutter release button  on film cameras as which was the crisper and therefore the quickest at catching the moment.

I have been debating which Monochrom to keep out of the three and the M9M is looking the likely winner due to it's faster wake up amongst other things. Film to me will always be quicker providing that you have remembered to wind on or as what happened to me recently not put a film in !!

[tom.w.bn]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Wesselphoto:

I have the same issue with my m10, and before with my M262.

The m10 is slow in startup, the only way to solve it is burning several batteries a day, the startup time has not improved since years of production.

It's slow, very slow.. To few pro's work with Leica today I guess. All other brand camera I have are near instant.  X-pro,  nikon etc. Time for a speed Firmware update ?
The best digital M byfar is the M9 or M9mono in this case, it's Much faster then the later Cmos Leica s. I have all, but for proper response I Take the M9 (or m4😊).

Rgs eddy

 

I think it's technically impossible to deplete "serveral batteries" a day just because you switch off standby mode. 

[Kwesi]

Its been so long since I've used an M9 but i remember having issues with readiness when in discrete shooting mode. my M240 series cameras all were slow at times even when tapping the shutter before bringing the camera to my eye there were times when I still had to wait - longer than people can only hold a smile. I have never had this issue with an M10-P.

A simple tap of the shutter and its always ready by the time I bring it to my eye. 

[M2Pete]

 

On 5/26/2020 at 5:16 PM, Joe T said:

No matter how long I've been walking and looking for that moment, I can always raise an analog M to my eye, and snap a picture. However, with the digital M on, I have to wait for the digital rangefinder to wakeup before I can snap the picture. There is a better chance of perhaps missing the decisive moment with the digital rangefinder

As I've shot an M10 only briefly for a few hours I can't really judge. This may be true true, but I dislike to advance the the film and cock the shutter until I'm ready to shoot. Nothing against Pentax, but the spring on my K1000's shutter/cock mechanism be came stressed and damaged from cocking it in anticipation of a photo. Do not know if that is the same for Leicas but not risking it on my  M2 (I am admittedly a bit of a worrier). Coincidentally, since my digital Leica is a M-D Typ 262 (the digital body without a screen) the battery last "forever" and I have never had a need for the spare I bought for a full day's shoot. I find the time it takes me to cock my M2's shutter is roughly the same as the time it takes me to wake up my M-D and get the frame lines I need by tapping the shutter button. Either way, they'll have to bury me with both when the time comes. 🙃

Edited April 19, 2021 by M2Pete
added words, spelling correction

[adan]

8 hours ago, M2Pete said:

I dislike to advance the the film and cock the shutter until I'm ready to shoot. Nothing against Pentax, but the spring on my K1000's shutter/cock mechanism be came stressed and damaged from cocking it in anticipation of a photo. Do not know if that is the same for Leicas but not risking it on my  M2 (I am admittedly a bit of a worrier).

Not to take sides in the title discussion, but remember that SLRs (at least the clockwork ones like the K1000) use a lot more "spring force" in taking a picture. Not just moving the shutter, but also moving the mirror, and applying a force to a lever or pin to stop down the aperture. It's why they make so much more noise (usually).

it is also the case that shutter springs in general are not "wound tight" and then "fully released." They are always partially tensioned. Perhaps 40% when not cocked, and 60% when cocked.

If the spring was completely untensioned by the end of the exposure, the shutter would slow down as it moved, and the speed would not be an equal 1/1000th or 1/8th across the whole picture. And the same would apply if the spring was fully wound up tight before the beginning of the exposure.

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Hallo,

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[01af]

Actually, it's recommended to keep the shutter cocked always. It doesn't make any difference to the springs and it's better for the cloth shutter curtains. Plus, you won't miss a shot due to uncocked shutter. So — firing and re-cocking the shutter should be considered one single atomic action.

[M2Pete]

On 4/19/2021 at 5:33 AM, adan said:

Not to take sides in the title discussion, but remember that SLRs (at least the clockwork ones like the K1000) use a lot more "spring force" in taking a picture. Not just moving the shutter, but also moving the mirror, and applying a force to a lever or pin to stop down the aperture. It's why they make so much more noise (usually).

it is also the case that shutter springs in general are not "wound tight" and then "fully released." They are always partially tensioned. Perhaps 40% when not cocked, and 60% when cocked.

If the spring was completely untensioned by the end of the exposure, the shutter would slow down as it moved, and the speed would not be an equal 1/1000th or 1/8th across the whole picture. And the same would apply if the spring was fully wound up tight before the beginning of the exposure.

Learn something new everyday! Instead of trading it and my 2 lenses in for a Nikon F maybe I should have not done so! This was as a teenager back in the mid 80's, what did I know? 🙂