Arrival and Features of the CL2

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

CL2 needs to provide weather sealing and IBIS at minimum, to be relevant. 
It can be a little bit bigger. Not a big deal, it is so small, that a little bit of muscle wouldn’t hurt. 

I am not sure if it will get a new sensor. Which one ? Nobody seems in a hurry to go higher than 24/26MP in APS-C except Canon. However coupling 32.5MP with anti aliasing filter is quite odd. 
BSI seems to give no advantage against FSI for m4/3 and bigger sensor. 
26MP is virtually identical to 24MP. 
36 or 39MP (to provide 8K video) seems way too much for APS-C size. I think that TL lenses can handle them. But I am not so sure about Sony and Fuji lenses. Their oldest lenses already struggled from 16 to 24MP. Imagine with 36MP... 
That’s why Sony and Fujifilm do not hurry to upgrade to higher MP count  

If they go with 36MP, they will need to give us IBIS. But I am afraid that high ISO will suffer a lot. I really hate Q2 noise over 3200-6400 ISO. Whereas 12800 ISO is still OK for CL.

Then last. With COVID-19 I am pretty sure that all cameras will be delayed. So no CL2 in 2020. Maybe late 2021

The old legend. Lenses do not "struggle" with higher resolutions. It is not a weakest link situation. A better sensor will produce better results on any lens. A better lens will produce better results on any sensor.

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

Scroll down to the appendix.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[nicci78]

This is Cicala’s quote : 

 

« You could kind of get that ‘perceptual megapixel’ thing if either the lens (or the camera) really sucks. Let say we were using a crappy kit zoom lens with an MTF of 0.3. With the old camera; 0.3 X 0.7 =.21. Let’s spend a fortune on the newer, better camera, and we get 0.3 X 0.9 = 0.27. So our overall system MTF only went up a bit (0.07) because the lens really sucked. But if it had been just an average lens or a better lens (let say the MTF was 0.6 or 0.8), we’d have gotten a pretty similar improvement.

If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly.

Roger’s rule: If you have either a crappy lens or crappy camera, improve the crappy part first; you get more bang for your $. I just saw a thread for someone wanting to upgrade to the newest 60-megapixel camera, and all of his lenses were average zooms. I got nauseous.»

 

What I understand. Perceptual MP is stupid. I agree with that. Almost all DXOmark stuff is PR stunt. 
But Roger also agreed that a crappy lens can undermined a great sensor. 
And that a crappy sensor will not take advantage to excellent lens. 
So you have to keep balance between lenses and sensor. That’s why higher MP sensor will need better lens eventually. 

[jaapv]

Quote

If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly.

You may have missed this bit. I think you can call Fuji's and Sony's  APS-C lenses  at  least "reasonably good", so it is clear that one cannot say:

8 hours ago, jaapv said:

I think that TL lenses can handle them. But I am not so sure about Sony and Fuji lenses. Their oldest lenses already struggled from 16 to 24MP. Imagine with 36MP... 

as the point is that lenses do not "struggle" with sensors. A better sensor will improve them. How else could vintage lenses perform fantastically on the best modern sensors?
If you wanted to say that Sony and Fuji would benefit from better APS lenses in general, I would agree. That has been obvious from the X1 onwards, when Sony-sensored Leica cameras consistently outperformed the Sony APS offerings. I might even concede that as sensor performance increases, the differences become more obvious. But even present-day lenses would perform better.

[nicci78]

The real issue is that, if Sony and Fuji do not want to go higher than 24/36 MP in APS-C world. It would be almost impossible for Leica to do so with CL2. Because no sensor will be available at reasonable price for such low volume camera. 
 

So I really think that we will be stuck with  FSI 24MP. Or go BSI 26MP at best. But they are virtually identical, performance wise. 
So in that case what will make CL2 compelling ? Better EVF ? IBIS ? Weather sealing ? SL/Q2/SL2 battery ?
I think that we will need all 4 ! Otherwise don’t bother to upgrade. 
Q2, SL2 and M10 Monochrom proved that Leica is ready to go big for each new iteration. But they need more time than the typical 3 years span. So potentially no CL2 before 2021 at best. 

[FrozenInTime]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

The real issue is that, if Sony and Fuji do not want to go higher than 24/36 MP in APS-C world. It would be almost impossible for Leica to do so with CL2. Because no sensor will be available at reasonable price for such low volume camera. 
 

So I really think that we will be stuck with  FSI 24MP. Or go BSI 26MP at best. But they are virtually identical, performance wise. 
So in that case what will make CL2 compelling ? Better EVF ? IBIS ? Weather sealing ? SL/Q2/SL2 battery ?
I think that we will need all 4 ! Otherwise don’t bother to upgrade. 
Q2, SL2 and M10 Monochrom proved that Leica is ready to go big for each new iteration. But they need more time than the typical 3 years span. So potentially no CL2 before 2021 at best. 

This is where a Tick-Tock system strategy cycle comes in to play: existing users may skip every other body upgrade, but are tempted to buy new lenses in the gap period.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I'll stay with my original point -- IBIS and a slight UI improvement  would make a CL2 attractive to me,.  I'm happy with the existing CL lens set, but use as an extender for SL full frame lenses, now with IBIS really adds value.

On the question if whether Fuji (I know nothing about Sony) has lenses that will get value out of a sensor with more MPx, I think their f/1.4 series of lenses will do fine.  The f/2.0 lenses may be problematic.  I've used some of both, from 2017 to 2019.  And some newer lenses have appeared since then.  So there should be sensors available for the ambitious next generation products. 

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

6 hours ago, nicci78 said:

The real issue is that, if Sony and Fuji do not want to go higher than 24/36 MP in APS-C world. It would be almost impossible for Leica to do so with CL2. Because no sensor will be available at reasonable price for such low volume camera. 
 

So I really think that we will be stuck with  FSI 24MP. Or go BSI 26MP at best. But they are virtually identical, performance wise. 
So in that case what will make CL2 compelling ? Better EVF ? IBIS ? Weather sealing ? SL/Q2/SL2 battery ?
I think that we will need all 4 ! Otherwise don’t bother to upgrade. 
Q2, SL2 and M10 Monochrom proved that Leica is ready to go big for each new iteration. But they need more time than the typical 3 years span. So potentially no CL2 before 2021 at best. 

2021 sounds about right as a guess. But there is no reason to think that Leica would stick with Sony for their APS sensors. In the Panasonic sphere we see 20 MP MFT sensors, so the technology for smaller pixel dimensions is available to Leica. They have been doing bespoke sensors for quite a while now, look at the M240, SL, Q, etc.

[nicci78]

4 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

This is where a Tick-Tock system strategy cycle comes in to play: existing users may skip every other body upgrade, but are tempted to buy new lenses in the gap period.

With very rapid falling camera sales. 
tick tock did not apply anymore. 
Leica really wants the vast majority of Q owners to switch to Q2. Same for SL to SL2. They do not want you to skip a generation. Otherwise the company will be dead before you can contemplate any potential Q3 or SL3. 

 

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

2021 sounds about right as a guess. But there is no reason to think that Leica would stick with Sony for their APS sensors. In the Panasonic sphere we see 20 MP MFT sensors, so the technology for smaller pixel dimensions is available to Leica. They have been doing bespoke sensors for quite a while now, look at the M240, SL, Q, etc.

The only issue, is that Panasonic is also using Sony 4/3 20MP sensor. m4/3 seems to be stuck with 20MP max. Same as Nikon choose 20MP for its APS-C camera : D500 and Z50  

For some kind of reason Leica always used Sony sensor for APS-C since ever : X1. Who knows what kind of deal they signed together. 
 

[jaapv]

I know that they approached Sony first for the M240 and after Sony was unable to meet their specs they went with CMosis. 

[M11 for me]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

I know that they approached Sony first for the M240 and after Sony was unable to meet their specs they went with CMosis. 

What is the source of this?

[jaapv]

Leica.

[FrozenInTime]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

With very rapid falling camera sales. 
tick tock did not apply anymore. 
Leica really wants the vast majority of Q owners to switch to Q2. Same for SL to SL2. They do not want you to skip a generation. Otherwise the company will be dead before you can contemplate any potential Q3 or SL3. 
 

I would agree that applies with a fixed lens camera like the Q/Q2, but with system cameras it is easy to spend much more on lenses than bodies.

[robgo2]

My guess is that some (most?) of the people who have no interest in IBIS have never experienced the benefits of image stabilization.  It really does allow hand-holding at significantly slower shutter speeds (and lower ISOs) than would otherwise be possible.

I will be all-in on a CL2 with IBIS and some of the other modifications mentioned in this thread. However, I have doubts about the wisdom of Leica introducing a new camera in the midst of a worldwide economic depression, which will surely not end anytime soon. Perhaps their target market is relatively immune to financial hardship, but one never knows.  These are uncertain times.

Edited May 13, 2020 by robgo2

[jaapv]

Your guess is wrong...

[bags27]

As always, Ming has good things to say, and here he extols IBIS:

https://blog.mingthein.com/2020/05/11/use-the-night/#more-19484

[robgo2]

47 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Your guess is wrong...

So, you can back that assertion with data showing that I am wrong about some of IBIS-meh folks having never experienced the benefits? I would imagine that lots of died-in-the-wool Leica users have never used image stabilization.

Edited May 13, 2020 by robgo2

[M11 for me]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jaapv:

I know that they approached Sony first for the M240 and after Sony was unable to meet their specs they went with CMosis. 

In post #52 you say that this information is frommLeica. To my knowledge there is no official source confirming this.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

There was on the introduction of the M240. Dr Kaufman and Stefan Daniel discussed the choice of CMOSIS in interviews. 

[M11 for me]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

There was on the introduction of the M240. Dr Kaufman and Stefan Daniel discussed the choice of CMOSIS in interviews. 

Ok. Thank you. That is true.