Next generation M glass...

[james.liam]

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1 hour ago, pgk said:

But the pre-aspheric weighed 245 g according to the wiki here. It’s a delightfully diminutive lens. A high performance design of this size, with a small but efficient hood, would be an update with having.

Delightful, yes, doubtful that where they'll go for inspiration. Also not Herr Prof. Karbe's taste in optical signature.

Edited May 7, 2020 by james.liam

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[Jeff S]

At least Mr. Karbe has shown another side by updating some vintage M lenses, such as the 28 Summaron, with apparently more to come.  Unfortunately, most of the recent M lens introductions have been fast and huge, by M standards.  The last diminutive M 'statement' lens seems to have been the 50 APO M Summicron, but that was 8 years ago.

Jeff

[105012]

A new line of e39 lenses, tiny, light, round aperture openings, firm aperture settings (no random aperture setting ‘feature’), impeccable build quality (both mechanically and optically), clever floating elements where required in compact form, now that would be a proper set of Leica lenses...

[LeicaR10]

I find the move by Leica to increase the resolution of the M lenses to both interesting and at the same time a leaves me a feeling of dismay.  Many of the older and some current Leica lenses have character and helped create a look or feeling when used properly, photographs with excellent content.  IMO, the SL lenses and SL2 camera although superb optically and in terms of resolution, have no character to them.  The SL lenses, like the M 50mm APO Summicron, are IMO, too "perfect" and lack character.  In fact, my corporate and private collector clients rejected photographs taken with the SL2 and lenses and much prefer the S camera and S lenses.  Why?  As they told me,  the S cameras and lenses have a cinematic way of rendering and have some character.  For this reason, all the SL2 cameras and lenses found new homes via eBay.  If one were to look at the many forum threads relative to M lenses and photographs taken with some current and certainly older M glass, one would see those lenses with their "optical flaws".  IMO, the "flaws" added a feeling to the content of the photographs. (50mm Noctilux is a good example)  Of course it always gets down to creating photographs that have superb content.  Content that separates a mere snap shot, to a superb photograph that makes the viewer;  Stop, Look, Think and if possible Feel something about that moment in time.  I believe both photographers and Leica are making a big mistake both asking for and then making cameras with more and more MPs in camera and making "perfect" lenses with no "flaws" and high resolution.  If anything, keeping the sensors for the M at 24 or 36 MPs with superb color and low noise and high ISO capability would be far better than more MPs.  Many photographers do not print or print very large photographs.  One does not need more MPs or high resolving "perfect" lenses.  Rather, photographers would be far more happy creating photographs with excellent content and character than getting sucked into higher MP cameras and perfect lenses.  Doing so is IMO both a waste on ones creativity and certainly money.  r/ Mark

Edited May 7, 2020 by LeicaR10
Typos

[J.Nordvik]

Leica M lenses used to be the "best" lenses for 35 format until Zeiss Otus and Sigma Art. Now almost every new lens for mirrorless is "better". I would probably not buy any new lens that would cost the same as a APO Summicron 50mm, but I think it is important for the M system to have lenses that in theory can compete with the latest lenses in MTF. That way I can justify the system if anyone asks. "It is expensive, but the best"

[giannis]

1 hour ago, J.Nordvik said:

Leica M lenses used to be the "best" lenses for 35 format until Zeiss Otus and Sigma Art. Now almost every new lens for mirrorless is "better". I would probably not buy any new lens that would cost the same as a APO Summicron 50mm, but I think it is important for the M system to have lenses that in theory can compete with the latest lenses in MTF. That way I can justify the system if anyone asks. "It is expensive, but the best"

This is the reason in my opinion too. And also progress in general. Lenses have been getting better, and optical design software along with modern manufacturing techniques have enabled new/small players to produce excellent lenses, that closed the gap a huge lot compared to the "top" brands. No brand can stay stagnant while the competition improves, not if  it wants to stay relevant at least. Even if we're way past the point of diminishing returns.

[evikne]

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We are lucky that the M-mount accommodates lenses to everyone's taste. Everything from the oldest to the most modern.

Personally I prefer something in between. 

[pgk]

To throw in a curved ball. Given the current status of a 'throwaway' world, I would actually like to see Leica offering a full refurbishment programme on older lenses. Not just a CLA, but a restoration option which might (at a cost) include repolishing and reciting damaged elements or even replacement if feasible. Expensive for sure but an old and worn lens could be restored and have another 50 years of life in it then. Probably too much to ask but it would be a novel, unique approach.

[Stein K S]

26 minutes ago, pgk said:

To throw in a curved ball. Given the current status of a 'throwaway' world, I would actually like to see Leica offering a full refurbishment programme on older lenses. Not just a CLA, but a restoration option which might (at a cost) include repolishing and reciting damaged elements or even replacement if feasible. Expensive for sure but an old and worn lens could be restored and have another 50 years of life in it then. Probably too much to ask but it would be a novel, unique approach.

Agree. I am still somewhat dissappointed that they did not want to touch my 35 Summaron 3,5 1953 (small early version and needing help to ¨de-haze¨ element just behind the aperture blades, rather minty elsewise). Claim was ¨we do not do service on those anymore¨.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Stein K S

[FrozenInTime]

I think I could get excited over a technically perfected 35mm Summicron and a 35mm Noctilux .

But increasingly question the return on investment in a world where a image is worth only a few seconds of screen time.

[Fedro]

11 hours ago, LeicaR10 said:

I find the move by Leica to increase the resolution of the M lenses to both interesting and at the same time a leaves me a feeling of dismay.  Many of the older and some current Leica lenses have character and helped create a look or feeling when used properly, photographs with excellent content.  IMO, the SL lenses and SL2 camera although superb optically and in terms of resolution, have no character to them.  The SL lenses, like the M 50mm APO Summicron, are IMO, too "perfect" and lack character.  In fact, my corporate and private collector clients rejected photographs taken with the SL2 and lenses and much prefer the S camera and S lenses.  Why?  As they told me,  the S cameras and lenses have a cinematic way of rendering and have some character.  For this reason, all the SL2 cameras and lenses found new homes via eBay.  If one were to look at the many forum threads relative to M lenses and photographs taken with some current and certainly older M glass, one would see those lenses with their "optical flaws".  IMO, the "flaws" added a feeling to the content of the photographs. (50mm Noctilux is a good example)  Of course it always gets down to creating photographs that have superb content.  Content that separates a mere snap shot, to a superb photograph that makes the viewer;  Stop, Look, Think and if possible Feel something about that moment in time.  I believe both photographers and Leica are making a big mistake both asking for and then making cameras with more and more MPs in camera and making "perfect" lenses with no "flaws" and high resolution.  If anything, keeping the sensors for the M at 24 or 36 MPs with superb color and low noise and high ISO capability would be far better than more MPs.  Many photographers do not print or print very large photographs.  One does not need more MPs or high resolving "perfect" lenses.  Rather, photographers would be far more happy creating photographs with excellent content and character than getting sucked into higher MP cameras and perfect lenses.  Doing so is IMO both a waste on ones creativity and certainly money.  r/ Mark

this makes sense to me. SL pictures with some M lenses have plenty of character (75 Lux, 35 Lux pre-asph etc), but with the SL lenses, beautiful and prefect as they can be quite "dry" and sanitised 

In fact I tend to prefer the look of the SL with the 50 M apo than with the SL crons (apart from the SL 90)

[pgk]

39 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

I think I could get excited over a technically perfected 35mm Summicron and a 35mm Noctilux .

But increasingly question the return on investment in a world where a image is worth only a few seconds of screen time.

Buying new Leica lenses is not a good investment, if those are the terms you think in. I have bought new - working gear - but buying used has meant a return on investment. That said it was''t why I bought.I have realised that I buy lenses to create images that satisfy me because I'm a visual person. And I find lenses fascinating. We can take transparent things and shape them into the most extraordinary tools. For me Leica M lenses bridge the gap between early lenses and current AF system lenses. They are a hybrid of optical excellence and mechanical engineering and often in an incredibly small package.

[willeica]

This has largely to be related to revenue streams. If most M users have all the lenses they want or can acquire what they need second hand, with a choice going back 66 years, then the lens revenue stream dries up. There is a lot of talk here about 'resolving'  and 'out resolving' but most of us and, indeed, Leica know that 'good enough' has already been achieved, particularly in a world where most images are now consumed on electronic screens. Computational photography will potentially put serious stress on the lens revenue stream when it becomes a reality. There will now be a serious hiatus caused by Covid-19 in a market which was already declining. All of these factors points to need for lens development being ongoing in the next year or two while the world gets ready for the 'new normal'. I also agree with the members who have said that some modern lenses are 'too perfect' and produce boring images, although the photographer can equally be at fault. What we call 'character' might be caused by what other people might call 'flaws'. Now there's a thought. Leica might start putting in some of the old flaws back into its lenses to recapture that 'old look'. What comes around goes around.

William

[FrozenInTime]

32 minutes ago, pgk said:

Buying new Leica lenses is not a good investment, if those are the terms you think in. I have bought new - working gear - but buying used has meant a return on investment. That said it was''t why I bought.I have realised that I buy lenses to create images that satisfy me because I'm a visual person. And I find lenses fascinating. We can take transparent things and shape them into the most extraordinary tools. For me Leica M lenses bridge the gap between early lenses and current AF system lenses. They are a hybrid of optical excellence and mechanical engineering and often in an incredibly small package.

Indeed, I was not thinking of financial return , but if any lens improvements or uniqueness of rendering would be reflected in increased viewer appreciation .

Edited May 8, 2020 by FrozenInTime

[lct]

Leica knows well that many M users prefer character to perfection, see the current Summaron and Thambar, but it's hard to sell expensive lenses if they are outperformed by cheaper ones. There are ZM and CV lenses, let alone 7art, for those on a budget fortunately.

[Donut]

Some good points here. I agree that SL lenses are optically perfect with a 'transparent' signature that is indistinguishable with the best lenses of other manufacturers. The M lenses do maintain a little sparkle, however, especially at 1.4. The 2004 50 lux in particular - a rare combination of biting sharpness with painterly brush strokes. 

The suggestion to revamp banged up old lenses is also fantastic. From a business point of view it would turn an untapped market into a new revenue stream for Leica, and I for one would be tempted to get a 50mm collapsible cron or a 35 lux (small ones) which are difficult to find in good condition these days, unless you're prepared to pay a ridiculous sum. 

Or maybe come out with a retro version of them? I think they would do quite well...

[IkarusJohn]

Not sure the rumours link says much, except that new lenses are coming.  Well, bugger me!

I certainly don’t need another 50, but I’m sure the Summilux ASPH could benefit from a refresh.  Truth is, I don’t need more resolving power or more perfection.  If I have to replace one of my cameras (highly unlikely), I hope Leica has a 36MP camera, no more complicated than what I have (preferably simpler), just better.  I like the lenses I have - 4/10 secondhand ...

[CYBORA]

All these lenses sound like big and expensive

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[Peters]

Why would Leica get rid of the Summarit line? The 2.5 range was a mistake from a hardware point of view, but they fixed that with the 2.4. Such a shame...

[ardbeg]

On 5/7/2020 at 8:22 AM, pgk said:

I have to be honest and say that I struggle to understand the desire for increasing MPixels/resolution. I can't fit all my existing photos which are printed and framed on the walls as it is and these are from 18 & 24Mpixel cameras. Faster lens yes, but why not ally these to high ISO/low noise sensors so that they push boundaries in a different way - that said for an M the rangefinder focus will start to struggle unless this too is upgraded.

I fully agree. I'm more than happy in ~24Mpixel range and would perhaps consider ~40 but I'd rather see a focus on increased dynamic range from the sensor and signal processing algorithms than just raw pixel resolution increase.