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[ramarren]

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On 5/5/2020 at 1:23 PM, Duddingston said:

Recently bought CL as I used leicas many years ago ...

Welcome to the forum, Mike. 

Before we get to the big philosophical debate about old and new, different ways of working, etc etc, I suggest you read the Leica CL instruction manual and learn precisely how the camera that you bought is capable of and how to use all its features. The full Leica CL instruction manual is available as a downloadable PDF file from 

https://us.leica-camera.com/Service-Support/Support/Downloads?category=135943&subcategory=145886&type=&language=all

in several languages. You can also order a printed copy if you prefer that direct from Leica. Read, experiment, test out what works for the way you want to shoot, and enjoy. Once you understand it, you can use the camera any way that pleases you to make your photographs however you like. Set it up the way you want and go use it. 

There is no need to dive into philosophy and judgements about what is better or worse: it's irrelevant and mostly a waste of time. And since you just bought the camera, from your opening statement, you should learn it and gain some experience using it with an open mind before all that. Much better to simply learn the camera and figure out what works for you, use it, and make some great photographs.

On 5/5/2020 at 1:23 PM, Duddingston said:

Is it possible to program  CL to only use "M" setting or to remain on the "M" setting when manually put on ?

What "off camera" flash should I buy for the CL. Thinking of second hand Metz or new Nissin but which hot shoe to use ???  

In response to your specific questions: 

Yes, it is possible and easy to set up the CL so that it is in Manual exposure mode when you turn it on. Just set it to Manual exposure: when you turn it off, it should retain your settings automatically. If you have other configuration settings that you would like to always be able to return the camera to, set everything up the way you want it, then create a User Profile and name it appropriately. Now any time you choose that profile, the camera will be set exactly the way you had it set when you saved the profile.

If you want full functionality of the Leica CL's flash capabilities, you have to buy a Leica flash unit that matches the camera, like with most dedicated camera-flash systems. If you don't care about full functionality, any flash unit with a hot shoe should work fine. When I want to use off-camera flash, I use a simple, ancient Cactus V2 RF trigger and one of several random, simple electronic flash units I have in the cabinet. For me, that's much more convenient than using cabled flash units, TTL flash metering, et cetera, most of the time. A flash meter and a little understanding goes a long way!  

Good luck with your CL! 

G

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by ramarren

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[Duddingston]

Interesting ……

I bought the last diesel Outlander in Europe in 2019 ! Searched everywhere for it. And I used to own a TR2. As for driving coal carts I drive horse drawn carts so you can see I am a little stuck in the 18th century …… and I am the type of person who thinks, if at first I don't succeed - give up !

My photo history includes sinar 5 x 4 studio pack shots, Hasselblad for portraits and weddings and Olympus trip half frame cameras taking photos of visitors at seaside resorts all over the UK with monkeys as props. So there you have it ….

[Duddingston]

PS: And I still haven't worked out what all the knobs are for on the Outlander !

PPS: And I had to go and buy a mobile phone as the Outlander has no internal Nav system. (my carrier pidgeons became redundant) 

[jaapv]

Don’t ever get the PHEV. On our forum we are explaining the use of the controls forever. The manuals are useless in their complexity and redundancy. 

[wda]

46 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Don’t ever get the PHEV. On our forum we are explaining the use of the controls forever. The manuals are useless in their complexity and redundancy. 

Jaap, manuals may be far from perfect, but for someone entering digital Leicadom for the first time, I am a strong advocate of their spending leisure hours, learning where controls are and what they do. Best doing that before asking questions on any forum. In that way, help can be focused more effectively and the newcomer can obtain a better understanding of advice given.

[Duddingston]

thought I should say I have read the CL Manual but at 152 pages long I was unable to memorise it ! So when I come across a problem I referred back to it.

However nowhere in the manual does it mention that using a profile will save an exposure setting, it was WDA who suggested this and at first I was sceptical but he was right it does.

Briefly on the subject of flash guns, Leica are out of order by not making the camera so that all flash guns will work with it. They are after all the Rolls Royce of 35mm and capable of doing this.

Thanks again to everyone and keep safe !

[jaapv]

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There is a very good technical reason for Leica to have its own flash system. Most if not all camera brands do anyway. 

[tommonego@gmail.com]

I use a Metz CT-1 with my CL and like on any camera it does a great job. I am using a simple hot shoe PC wired to flash connector, may look into an RF controller. You could use a manual flash if you want to do the math. 

[Duddingston]

Do you mean a Metz 45 CT 1? What is a hot shoe PC wired to flash connector ? Is this something you put on the hot shoe and from there a lead goes to the flash ? Presumably one could also use this to fire a studio flash ? What make is this PC thing ? And what is a RF controller ?

Dumb or what ?

[jaapv]

Yes, any vintage  auto or manual flash will work, but I think there are only brand-specific ones available new, except for a few 10$ Aliexpress ones.

[jaapv]

7 minutes ago, Duddingston said:

Do you mean a Metz 45 CT 1? What is a hot shoe PC wired to flash connector ? Is this something you put on the hot shoe and from there a lead goes to the flash ? Presumably one could also use this to fire a studio flash ? What make is this PC thing ? And what is a RF controller ?

Dumb or what ?

The central contact in the hot shoe is the universal sync contact. All the other contacts are brand-specific interfaces in arrangement and software. Actually the venerable SCA3502   adapter on Metz SCA 3000 flashes may support some functions like a zoom reflector, but not TTL.

Joeri has some advice on triggers:

https://joerivanderkloet.com/qa-flash-trigger-system-leica/

[ramarren]

For someone who purports to have once been a professional photographer, you sure are dismissive of learning the gear, Duddington. I've been doing photography, both personal and professional work, since 1963. It's not that difficult to read a manual and understand what it says, try out how things work and observe what happens. I still shoot with my Hasselblad 500CM and older cameras as well as the latest modern cameras, and I still occasionally learn something that I didn't know about the old gear too. There's more of the same between these generations of equipment than there is different... 😉

Amongst your questions: An "RF Controller" for a flash unit is a way to move the flash off camera without having to have a wire connecting them. It uses a "radio frequency" transmitter on the camera and a receiver on the flash to tell the flash when the shutter is fired; often the transmitter and receiver are incorporated into a single device as a transceiver and configured for the function you want it to have. They've been around for about 25-26 years now in popular usage ... Old technology at this point.

Go to any large camera equipment vendor's website and browse through the lighting and flash systems products. There are dozens of them, if not hundreds. Learn the terminology and read the descriptions ... all the devices and such are pretty easy to figure out. Adapters to allow use of hot shoe devices on cameras that have no hot shoe, devices to trigger flash units, non-brand-specific dedicated flash systems that are available for a range of different brand specific flash system protocols, etc. 

No one can answer every question without writing that thick instruction manual, and you don't have to remember all of it anyway. The purpose of the manual is to be there when you need to learn how something works in the first place or find a bit of information that you don't ordinarily use, and an instruction manual assumes that you also try a control to establish its function and then observe what the devices does. I used to write instruction manuals... 

G

[jaapv]

'63? Youngster!   After after a box camera, Agfa Click, Clack and Silette Prontor SVS, I bought my first SLR that year, an EXA1.

[Duddingston]

Hi Ramarren

I earnt my living from 17 until 37 yo as a photographer, if this means I am purporting to have been a professional photographer I am guilty as charged although what significance that might have on being dismissive of "learning the gear" is beyond me and which incidentally I vehemently deny. As to reading manuals I am of the school of thought that says if at first you don't succeed then as a last resort read the instructions.

I might have guessed you had actually written manuals, I on the other hand used to watch painting drying which I suspect is a more exciting pastime. Having now joined a forum for the first time in my life it is only a matter of time before I start train spotting ….

La vie est belle non ?

[ramarren]

We live on opposite sides of the documentation fence. I read the manual for every piece of gear I buy, often before I even had the gear, and I go back to the manual if I don't understand something and try to interpret what I read differently if possible to solve the problem I'm having. I only ask questions on the forums when I can't find an answer by myself with the manual. 

And what I find in my 36 years of being on-line in various forums, is that 98% of all the questions asked can be answered in five minutes from the manufacturers' instruction manual for the particular device, no matter what it might be. Nearly all the answers I've offered that have been lauded as "genius, perfect answer" were literally word for word written from the instruction manual that the person asking the question had in the box with their camera. 

Yes I wrote manuals. It was tremendously fun and creative work: how to take the complex feature set of a modern product (software, hardware, camera, whatever...) and give a user the context and workflow of its proper use in an easily acquired, easy to remember, and definitive way. How to give the user the fundamental logic of the device so that they didn't have to ask so many questions because they understand how the device was intended to be used and what the logic of its operation was in that use. 

My opinion: If you don't read the instruction manual thoroughly to learn how to use any modern device, you're throwing away half the value of the device. Because many of the things the devices of today do require that kind of understanding. Even if you think you know it all already, read the manual to learn more. 

Any photographer I know of who is acting responsibly and working to do the best job possible invests a portion of their working time to studying and practicing the use of their equipment until they know it cold and don't need to refer to the manual again. 

But enough. If you don't want to read the manual for understanding the simple things that are perfectly obvious once you do so, I don't have the time to spend as your personal information resource.

G

[jaapv]

I cannot quite agree. Especially Leica cameras require little manual reading. Most functions are self-explanatory. The manual is useful for the special bits and questions like "I would like to do thus, how to ?" Which means scanning it quickly and only stopping to read very occasionally.

[nicci78]

We shouldn’t have to read any manual at all. If you have to, the designers failed.

 

Some weird thing such as CL or SL virtual buttons and dials, have to be explained. Otherwise every menu item should have a instant on screen definition if needed. 

[jaapv]

What do you mean by virtual buttons and dials? Maybe I cannot find them because I didn't read the manual?

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[Duddingston]

Nicci 78 - well said that man (where in France do you live ?- we live in Gers)

Jaapv - yes I think you are right as well

ramarren - you it seems live in silicone valley in the USA - may I suggest that explains your take on technology ? I enjoy taking photographs you it would appear enjoy reading and producing manuals - two people could not be further apart than us two and as to having no time for this nonsense are you not in lock down ?

[lct]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

We shouldn’t have to read any manual at all. If you have to, the designers failed.

Exactly. Menus should be simple and self explanatory. Which they are mainly as far as using the CL with M and LTM lenses is concerned. I have no experience with L lenses though.