The Earliest Standardized Screw Mount Lenses

[alan mcfall]

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The first interchangeable lenses, as we know, were  the non-standardized lenses for the early (2995 made) Ic non-standard cameras. They carried the whole or partial serial number of the camera on the lens depth of field ring. By 1931 the lens flange to film distance was standardized, and these new lenses were marked with a small "o", again on the depth ring.  Early lenses could be returned, with camera, for "standardization", and the "o" was added but the match number was normally not removed. With the non-standard lenses, Leitz had the 35 Elmar, 50 Elmar, 50 Hektor and the 135 Elmar.

Before Rangefinder coupling, before lens serialization, before infinity lock devices, before the 47mm flange, 11 O'clock standardized lenses were produced with the "o" mark.  I believe the earliest of these lenses had an "o" on both the depth ring and also on the rear of the lens flange.  Here is photo of 5 of the first lenses, all uncoupled, no serials, no infinity locks.

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The next photo shows a close up of the 35, and 50's back flange with the additional "o", ( look closely).  From my checks, this second "o" was not used long, and does not appear on lens with serials,or infinity locks.

The 135, added the "o" to the arrow at the base, but it is not on the rear of the flange.  The 90 Elmar was not introduced until the standardized camera and is not seen with the compatibility number, or "o" mark, but is sometimes uncoupled as as the coupled camera was not until Feb. 1932. So, all 90 Elmars are standardized from the first, my theory.

Any additional observations of the rear "o" is welcome, check your early lenses.  Any corrections also most welcome. Stay safe.

 

[Pecole]

Among the earliest not standardized lenses for Leica I, one should mention special modifications for non-Leitz lenses. I had one in my collection with its original Elmar 5 cm and a Teleross 4 inches. It had a special viewfinder cover with hinged mask for last. Several similar are known for other lenses.

Further, I had in my collection four unnumbered Elmar 5 cm, all nickel with cylindrical infinity blocking button and "o" engraving, and also a similar "fat barrel" black and nickel 9 cm Elmar and two 13.5 cm Elmar.

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[willeica]

Thanks Alan. This is something that I should have noticed before. I have two standardised I Model C cameras, with SNs 58089 and 67245. Both have 11 O'Clock 50mm Elmar lenses with no SNs and with a '0' engraved on the rear of the lens mount. Both also have a '0' engraved on the side of the mount inboard of the focus knob. 

I also have two 50mm Elmars with no SNs which have been converted from 11 O'Clock to 7 O'Clock and with a '0' on the side of the mount in the usual place, but neither has a '0" on the rear of the mount, presumably because the rear was replaced for 7 O'Clock operation.

I also have an uncoupled but standardised early 135mm Elmar with an arrow pointing away from a '0'.

I can post photos if anyone is interested.

William

Edited April 13, 2020 by willeica

[Pyrogallol]

I keep learning more on this forum.

I have now been looking for little “0” engravings on the back rim of my early lenses and found one.

On the back of my 35mm Elmar, close focus nickel with chrome mount, discussed elsewhere in a different thread.

Now the “0” on the back of the mount might indicate that the chrome mount was given to the nickel lens at the time it was standardised and both the mount and lens had a “0” added at that time?

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[willeica]

Was your 35mm lens originally 11 O’Clock? Based on my findings it would seem that a batch of 11 O’ Clock rear mount plates were converted for standardisation and were marked with a ‘0’. That seems to be why the 7 O ‘ Clock mounts do not have have the ‘0’ as that type of mount was introduced after standardisation. The 11O’ Clock ‘bell push’ infinity lock lenses in my collection do not have the ‘0’. That infinity lock was not introduced until after standardisation. I cannot be definitive about this, but the evidence from my own collection seems to point that way.

William

[luigi bertolotti]

I think yes... the short focus Elmar 35 was issued as a non standard lens, with 11 o'clock infinty (and a very long focus rotation... to something like 1 o'clock or so)  : so, the original mount (nickel) had the 3 digits compatibility number : within the upgrade to standard, the mount was exchanged - marked with "0" .

[willeica]

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24 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

I think yes... the short focus Elmar 35 was issued as a non standard lens, with 11 o'clock infinty (and a very long focus rotation... to something like 1 o'clock or so)  : so, the original mount (nickel) had the 3 digits compatibility number : within the upgrade to standard, the mount was exchanged - marked with "0" .

Thanks Luigi. I should have added that none of my lenses have the 3 digits. I think that they used an earlier part (the rear plate) which was marked with a '0' for use with a standardised lens which would also have had a '0' on the side of the lens mount just inboard of the infinity stop.

William

[Pyrogallol]

2 hours ago, willeica said:

Was your 35mm lens originally 11 O’Clock? Based on my findings it would seem that a batch of 11 O’ Clock rear mount plates were converted for standardisation and were marked with a ‘0’. That seems to be why the 7 O ‘ Clock mounts do not have have the ‘0’ as that type of mount was introduced after standardisation. The 11O’ Clock ‘bell push’ infinity lock lenses in my collection do not have the ‘0’. That infinity lock was not introduced until after standardisation. I cannot be definitive about this, but the evidence from my own collection seems to point that way.

William

This lens is still 11 o’clock and at the close focus point only stops turning when it gets right round to the other side of the stop screw at about five to twelve o’clock and can’t go any further.

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[willeica]

43 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

This lens is still 11 o’clock and at the close focus point only stops turning when it gets right round to the other side of the stop screw at about five to twelve o’clock and can’t go any further.

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Thanks. While this seems to confirm what I said earlier, it is interesting your mount plate is chrome and is narrower (for the slow speed dials) all of which point to later features, but it also carries a marked '0'. This might have been because it was still 11 O'Clock. That period from 1930 to 1933 was one of great change for Leica with non-standardised, standardised, no SNs, SNs, rangefinder coupling , 11 O'Clock , 7O'Clock , slow speed dials and nickel and chrome lenses and mounts all following in quick succession. That is to say nothing about infinity stops with flat, cone, 'bell push' , flat with cone markings all coming in and out of play. The scope for different lens variations and combinations from that period is very large indeed.

William

 

[tranquilo67]

I'm arriving late to this post but anyway thank you very much Alan for very the interesting post. I have no lenses with the O in the rear mount ring.

What I can see in my lenses with an external O is what as you stated, some models doesn't have it probably due to they "were born" already as standard independent from their production dates or serial numbers.

1.- Elmar 50 3.5 from May 1933 serial 156508  (eighth lens from the first documented batch). It's 7 o'clock but it has the O besides the focusing knob.

2.- Hektor 50 2.5 from Feb 1933 serial 156003 (third lens from the first documented batch). It has the O besides the focusing knob.

3.- Elmar 90 Thin from Aug 1933 serial 135964. An extremely early 90 thin but no O at all.

4.- Hektor 135 4.5 from 1933 serial 172155 (155th lens ever produced) has no serial so it seems that as the model was born as standard so no need to put the O

Here it is the above mentioned Hektor besides the Elmar.

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Here the Elmar and Hektor, both with the O in besides the mount.

Here my short focus Elmar 35 with 3 digits (254), that has no O anywhere, and all nickel mounted in my standard. This could confirm the fact that the collar rings were replaced with an O one when standardized. It's also narrower and also going to nearly 11 than the mount:

 

Best regards and stay safe,

Augusto