Best 20-24mm range to shoot at F/22

[Dennis]

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 Hi all!
 
What if I would love to get for an exciting project (a 21mm or 24mm, any brand or shape or model. The primary purpose is to "always" shoot at F/22 for the maximum DOP, calculating the right Hyperfocal distance for that specific lens. I enjoy shooting with a 20-24 angle of view and composition, so I'm sure I want to stay in this range.

Priority? Maximum DOP and distinguished performance (don't need perfect sharpening, just a splendid image, that's it). Don't care about weight, brand. Black would be awesome, but I'm flexible. I guess not everything can be black as my M10.

I do care about price 😅 Maximum of $1,000USD (new or used). I'll not spend money now; hopefully, soon, when the world situation is better. 
Meanwhile, I want to investigate more about it, and dream my ideal lens for this project would be. 

Please give me your opinion, which lens could be the perfect candidate? 
Thank you in advance and good vibes,
D.

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[farnz]

49 minutes ago, Dennis said:

The primary purpose is to "always" shoot at F/22 for the maximum DOP,

D,

While you might get maximum DoF at f/22 your image quality is likely to suffer from softening owing to diffraction.  At very small apertures (typically smaller than f/11) some of the light rays bend slightly as they passes through close to the edge of the aperture and makes a slightly larger 'spot' on the film or sensor, which results in a softer image.

My advice would be to choose any 21 or 24 mm lens and don't go beyond f/11.

Pete.

[ardbeg]

I agree on the comment to avoid going over F11. You likely won’t need to and will achieve good near / far focus. As to a specific lens, the Leica 24 Elmar 3.8 is very sharp. However, used it may be going for more around $1500 but I haven’t checked the market recently. Perhaps a used Voigtlander 25 Skopar.

[ardbeg]

Another random thought. You could adapt a used Nikkor PC (tilt/shift) 24mm and then you’d really never need to go beyond F11 and still achieve near / far “focus” with some tilts.

[spydrxx]

Or even a CV 21/4 Skopar...you can usually find them on the big auction site for a little over $300 USD.

[darylgo]

About 1974 there was a Nikkor 24mm, pre AI, that I shot and found to be remarkably good, with FLE.  Small, light, I still own it, single coat, it's taped for infinity focus on an adapter for Canon.  Used only for Milky Way shooting now it exhibits no aberrations wide open that are ruinous to stars.  At f22, I don't know, about $100 plus adapter, a good adapter will be more than the lens.  

[Joakim]

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I wonder how many people have a good knowledge about f/11-f/22 performance on different lenses so that they can give knowledgeable advice. I have the Leica 24 Elmar f/3.8 ASPH which is a superb lens but how much better is it really than the Voigtländer 21/4 Skopar or the Zeiss ZM 25 Biogon that I have also owned? I have really no idea, I assume it is better but a 1000-1500 Euro better....?

[farnz]

2 hours ago, Joakim said:

I have really no idea, I assume it is better but a 1000-1500 Euro better....?

That's a purely subjective matter that only you can answer for yourself.  I *might* have a completely different view to yours based on different criteria. 🙂 

Pete.

[a.noctilux]

I have some 20-24 range lenses, the most difficult is to reach f/22 with most as so many stop only to F/16 😉.

 

As positive opinion, take the lens which stops to f/32, then you'd have one stop margin 😏.

Suggestions ...

Second positive note : in your shoes, I'd use my Super-Angulon 4/21 but not relying to it's dof scale which curiously stops at f/16,

while the aperture can be set to f/22. It can focus to 40cm though.

 

Third , my rare S-A R mount 3.4/21 has engraved dop scale to f/22 (also the setting of aperture), focus can be at very close 20cm 😁.

 

Another cheap choice would be like my AF Nikkor 2.8/20mm F/22 and extrapolating the scale ( only to f/11 marking) doubling it, for example set the focus ring to 0.7m,

to begin with. Then experiment this nice challenging project.

[farnz]

Another option would be to shoot with a tripod at f/8 or f/11 and use focus stacking to increase DoF.

Pete.

Edited April 11, 2020 by farnz

[a.noctilux]

Seen in my lenses another small wonder for this project, old small model F mount Nikkor 4/20mm can stop to F/22 and focus to 30cm.

I had mine second hand for 150€, the cheapest but good lens with a bit more geometric distortion to beware of.

[adan]

Gotta remember that diffraction is pretty much an absolute effect based soley on aperture and image-format/size, and a "great leveler" of lenses.

Doesn't matter what fancy (or crummy) glass one uses. At f/22 diffraction will limit MTF to around 25% at 40 line pairs per mm (and about 60% at 20 lp/mm), regardless of whether the lens is the newest APO/ASPH, or a 1950s whatsit.

One could even say diffraction will do relatively less damage to an weak lens's image, that is already struggling to reach, say, 35% contrast at 40 lp/mm - it has less distance to fall.

Back in college I played around with using a 50 3.5 Elmar at f/22, and it looked as good (or bad) as when used at f/8. It was a fun way to get a kind of "35-40mm" feel from the deep focus.

Recently I tried f/22 with a Zeiss ZM 50mm Planar - and got the same performance as with the Elmar. It was just a more shockingly obvious relative decline with the modern lens.

__________________________

Folks, the OP wants to play around with massive DoF. It also sounds like he is looking at grab shots - hyperfocal street photography and such.

"View-camera" techniques such as tripods and tilt-shift lenses are about as useful as a bicycle to a goldfish.

[lct]

Not sure to get the point. F/22 is useful for macro works of course, some macro lenses like the R 60/2.8 are even designed for that. But for landcapes, street? At 10ft subject distance, DoF goes from 2ft to infinity at f/22 vs 4ft to infinity at f/11. Is this 2ft difference really relevant? Just curious.

 

[jaapv]

Not a good idea to shoot f22 on a 24 MP 24x36 sensor, irrespective of lens brand, design  or quality:

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm

You lose more in diffraction than you gain in DOF.

This technique is far superior:

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/focus-stacking.htm

[Jul]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

in your shoes, I'd use my Super-Angulon 4/21 but not relying to it's dof scale which curiously stops at f/16,

while the aperture can be set to f/22. It can focus to 40cm though.

So would I.

I would say that the scale stops at 16 because even at 16 it is already hard to check at a glance (180°) and at 22 it would be right on the infinity lock.

This scale is made from a circle of confusion we are not used to anymore, I mean that if I were to use this lens at f/22, I would look at f/16 or below markings to judge theoretical dof and if I am not mistaken, at f/11 a 24M px full frame sensor already starts to show diffraction anyway.

[pgk]

13 hours ago, Dennis said:

Please give me your opinion, which lens could be the perfect candidate? 

Basically, as has been said, f/22 is not going to be much different on any lens, except ..... that there will be some differences. So for example the f/3.4 Super-Angulon will show its square aperture is very close focus shots with odd oof background highlights. Its also prone to flare and substantial vignetting. If you are intent on using f/22 then ideally the best candidate is going to be a lens with 'normal' features such as an ordinary diaphragm, not too much vignetting and good flare resistance (probably a slower maximum aperture lens). So narrow you choice, do your homework and I'm sure that you will find an good candidate for under $1000. Its likely to be an older Leica lens or other brand at this price point though.

[Joakim]

5 hours ago, farnz said:

That's a purely subjective matter that only you can answer for yourself.  I *might* have a completely different view to yours based on different criteria. 🙂 

Pete.

Well did I claim otherwise?

[farnz]

No, but your rhetoric appeared to throw your question out there, hence my response.

Pete.

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[Dennis]

Thank you all for the comments. As always here, I learn a lot 🙂 I know that after F/11 the diffraction is gonna be a pain in the ass, but I can live with it.

The point here for this project, is to only deal with the exposure and composition. Because every time I shoot, it's gonna be in focus between 20-30-40 or 50cm and infinity. So I'm willing to deal with a worst image quality, to have ALL in focus.

16 hours ago, lct said:

Is this 2ft difference really relevant?

Yes, for this project is a lot. That's why my statement if maximum DOP

18 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

As positive opinion, take the lens which stops to f/32, then you'd have one stop margin 😏.

The worst diffraction of the world, but better DOP ... 🙌

18 hours ago, adan said:

Folks, the OP wants to play around with massive DoF. It also sounds like he is looking at grab shots - hyperfocal street photography and such.

"View-camera" techniques such as tripods and tilt-shift lenses are about as useful as a bicycle to a goldfish.

Correct. Think for a second like Street photography, but more extreme. Not for the subject, but for the DOP

15 hours ago, Jul said:

at f/11 a 24M px full frame sensor already starts to show diffraction anyway.

No idea, I would love to know too

16 hours ago, jaapv said:

You lose more in diffraction than you gain in DOF.

This technique is far superior:

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/focus-stacking.htm

Interesting. Now I'm going to sleep, but tomorrow I'll check what focus stacking is, Thank you! I'm always happy and welcome to know new techniques and approaches.

On 4/10/2020 at 8:41 PM, spydrxx said:

Or even a CV 21/4 Skopar...you can usually find them on the big auction site for a little over $300 USD.

Is a good lens? Good performance? I can buy it new, it's cheap.

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

Be kind to us, so you don't have to tell us our advice is not relevant. What IS this project that requires maximum Dof, hand held, where image quality doesn't matter?

We might actually be able to give you better advice😉

Edited April 12, 2020 by LocalHero1953