simonpj Posted March 23, 2020 Share #1 Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) Starting a thread for comments and image examples from the first two versions of the M mount Elmarit 28mm F2.8 Examples of the second version can still be found at relatively affordable prices, but there’s not much commentary and very few images online to help get a sense of what they’re like as a photographic tool. It’s clear from Erwin Puts’ evaluations that the first two versions offer significantly poorer technical performance than the later versions, but do they have interesting and valuable image fingerprints like the 21 SA or the pre-asph 35 Lux? Edited March 23, 2020 by simonpj Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 23, 2020 Posted March 23, 2020 Hi simonpj, Take a look here 28mm f2.8 Elmarit M v1 & v2 images and opinions. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
Bo-Sixten Posted March 23, 2020 Share #2 Posted March 23, 2020 There is an excellent thread in this forum by Adan called "In praise of Mandler lenses" where you get food for thought on some of these lenses. I have the the v 2 and the v 3 Elmarits and they are both excellent. V3 has a little better edge sharpness at full aperture. Here is a photo taken with v2 28mm 2.8 Elmarit. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 6 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=3937479'>More sharing options...
lct Posted March 23, 2020 Share #3 Posted March 23, 2020 I have no experience with the v1 of this lens but it protrudes a lot into the body so i don't know if it poses the same problems as the Super-Angulon 21/3.4 on digital M bodies. I would ask on the Collectors & Historica forum: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/forum/35-leica-collectors-historica/ Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=3937610'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 23, 2020 Share #4 Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) AH ! In those boring (dramatic, indeed...) days of reclusion... what is better than an occasion to make some comparisions ? 😉 I have a V1 (first batch - Wetzlar) and a V4 : as LCT correctly supposed, the V1 does not meter correctly on digital M - the same problem of Super Angulon 3,4. (btw, they have also the same hood and rear cap) So in my tests (M240) I measured with Elmarit v4 and set the same exposure on v1... btw, with the feeling that v1 has a bit lower aperture than the nominal one. Let's start with a picture of the duo : Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 23, 2020 by luigi bertolotti 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=3937683'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 23, 2020 Share #5 Posted March 23, 2020 First shots from my window at f4 and focus to 10 meters ... bringing the DOF to infinity... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! the feel ? a bit more of vignetting in the V1... you need to crop to see the difference... Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! the feel ? a bit more of vignetting in the V1... you need to crop to see the difference... ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=3937685'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 23, 2020 Share #6 Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) ... here... Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Which are anyway not so impressive (the little 2nd pic is a very heavy crop) Then simply turned the back to the window and framed my room... (I forgot to say before : jpg Out Of Camera - ISO 320 - on tripod for the interior) Edited March 23, 2020 by luigi bertolotti 1 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Which are anyway not so impressive (the little 2nd pic is a very heavy crop) Then simply turned the back to the window and framed my room... (I forgot to say before : jpg Out Of Camera - ISO 320 - on tripod for the interior) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=3937690'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 23, 2020 Share #7 Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) At f 2,8 on both lenses , focus on the Elmarit V1 box (2 meters around): Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! For various reasons, though on tripod. frame wasn't exactly the same...and light from outside changed also slightly during the operations... (I put the v4 on the table to be not confused when loading the pics... 😎) As before, apart the vignetting, imho one cannot say that the V1 is a poor performer... Edited March 23, 2020 by luigi bertolotti Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! For various reasons, though on tripod. frame wasn't exactly the same...and light from outside changed also slightly during the operations... (I put the v4 on the table to be not confused when loading the pics... 😎) As before, apart the vignetting, imho one cannot say that the V1 is a poor performer... ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=3937696'>More sharing options...
adan Posted March 23, 2020 Share #8 Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) I used the v.1 briefly back in 1980 or so ($500 - before they became collectibles) on an M2. It struck me as better (on film, of course) than Erwin's evaluation suggests. Introduced me to the concept of "edge contrast." But it blocks the metering on any M. I used the v.2 briefly a couple of years later - combined with a 90mm Tele-Elmarit v.1, it put me off Leica M for 20 years. "Why am I paying 3x as much as my Nikkor-Fs, for half the resolution?" My 1960s 28mm f/3.5 Nikkor-H held up better. Erwin Put's description of the V.2 is worded - diplomatically. I'm afraid "simply fuzzy" ≠ "character" or "unique fingerprint" or "glow." It was Leitz's first attempt at a retrofocus M lens (to clear M5/CL metering arms) - and there was obviously a learning curve. Mushy as heck at the ends of the picture (not just the corners) down to f/8-11, but pretty decent in the central ~9-mm-radius central circle at f/4 and below (just compose near the center, and hopefully put the edges out of focus anyway). At f/2.8 the word "Holga-esque" comes to mind. Not just my opinion - Leica replaced it with the vastly-improved v.3 within 7 years - virtually instantaneous in "Leica years." Neither v1 nor v2 is supported for 6-bit coding - as can be seen in lct's image above, both have the old 2-3mm thick chrome flange base, which is not compatable with the ~1mm thin modern flanges used since the mid-1970s (and for 6-bit coding). OTOH, the v.2 is so retrofocus that it shows only a tiny amount of Italian Flag/color vignetting on an M10, if any. I have tried the v.2 again, on and off with the M10 over the past 2 years, since it is more compact (and cheaper) than the v.3 - and one was available locally to try. It has a nice physical balance, sweet global contrast and tonal range (good on digital) and used with full knowledge of its defects, is a decent "documentary/people" lens. Which, of course, is what Leica Ms were used for, in its era. I got some nice moments with it (see below - M10, f/6.8) when sharp edges simply didn't matter. If one comes with the 12501 lens shade (shared with the 21 SA f/3.4, as luigi notes), that alone is worth ~$100 or more, and can be factored into the value/cost. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited March 23, 2020 by adan 2 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=3937700'>More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 23, 2020 Share #9 Posted March 23, 2020 (edited) ... but, no surprising, the crop shows the difference... when both at 2,8 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! No need to specify which is the V1... But I made the same takings also at f8... and the difference is a lot less significant (to be true, the resizing for post makes it even more negligible..) Well.. during my test (several other pics in the same set...) I observed some other details... fro instance, the V4 has a more regular focus plane... and with more colors, you observe also some differences in the global color balancing... but my opinion is that the venerable V1, with its complex 9 element schema, was a smart design and still an appreciable lens... with the definitive limitation of metering (btw, metering was a mechanical problem also on Leica M5 and CL, differently from V2 and later) . I must add also that my V1 (found in Italy around 15 years ago) was professionaly restored some years ago... V1 "Wetzlar" are rather uncommon.. and though my item was cosmetically very fine (with box - in the picture - , hood, caps) I decided that it was worth to have the glass duly cleaned. My V4 was bought used 3 years ago, in like new conditions (and is currently MY 28 for use) Edited March 23, 2020 by luigi bertolotti Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! No need to specify which is the V1... But I made the same takings also at f8... and the difference is a lot less significant (to be true, the resizing for post makes it even more negligible..) Well.. during my test (several other pics in the same set...) I observed some other details... fro instance, the V4 has a more regular focus plane... and with more colors, you observe also some differences in the global color balancing... but my opinion is that the venerable V1, with its complex 9 element schema, was a smart design and still an appreciable lens... with the definitive limitation of metering (btw, metering was a mechanical problem also on Leica M5 and CL, differently from V2 and later) . I must add also that my V1 (found in Italy around 15 years ago) was professionaly restored some years ago... V1 "Wetzlar" are rather uncommon.. and though my item was cosmetically very fine (with box - in the picture - , hood, caps) I decided that it was worth to have the glass duly cleaned. My V4 was bought used 3 years ago, in like new conditions (and is currently MY 28 for use) ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=3937719'>More sharing options...
DwF Posted March 24, 2020 Share #10 Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) Luigi, It may seem insignificant, but I see clearly better shadow detail on my monitor in the v4 (surprising given it is the higher contrast lens) both in shrubs by the gate around the tree at center left, and also shrubs across the street on right side of photo. Actually on second look, the v4 is just slightly lighter exposure throughout. David Edited March 24, 2020 by DwF Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted March 24, 2020 Share #11 Posted March 24, 2020 1 hour ago, DwF said: Luigi, It may seem insignificant, but I see clearly better shadow detail on my monitor in the v4 (surprising given it is the higher contrast lens) both in shrubs by the gate around the tree at center left, and also shrubs across the street on right side of photo. Actually on second look, the v4 is just slightly lighter exposure throughout. David You see right : in the original M240 files, the details in the foliage (pic 1) and even in the painting on wall (pic 2) are not only sharper but with better microcontrast : generally, I consider the V4 a top class 28mm (but never tried the asph or the Summicron): the V1, apart the aperture, is a lot comparable with the old Summaron 5,6 (and I have a previously made set of comparision pics... don't want to bore with it too..) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jankap Posted March 24, 2020 Share #12 Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) You don´t bore with kind of these comparisons. They are very interesting! Some time ago (another forum) somebody has tested a cheap lens booster and he was enthusiastic. He tested at f/8 and f/11! Edited March 24, 2020 by jankap Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bayernfan Posted March 24, 2020 Share #13 Posted March 24, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said: You see right : in the original M240 files, the details in the foliage (pic 1) and even in the painting on wall (pic 2) are not only sharper but with better microcontrast : generally, I consider the V4 a top class 28mm (but never tried the asph or the Summicron): the V1, apart the aperture, is a lot comparable with the old Summaron 5,6 (and I have a previously made set of comparision pics... don't want to bore with it too..) Not bored at all by your commentary and insights. The more the merrier, particularly during these times. 😉 Edited March 24, 2020 by bayernfan Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DwF Posted March 24, 2020 Share #14 Posted March 24, 2020 5 hours ago, luigi bertolotti said: You see right : in the original M240 files, the details in the foliage (pic 1) and even in the painting on wall (pic 2) are not only sharper but with better microcontrast : generally, I consider the V4 a top class 28mm (but never tried the asph or the Summicron): the V1, apart the aperture, is a lot comparable with the old Summaron 5,6 (and I have a previously made set of comparision pics... don't want to bore with it too..) Thank you Luigi. I tested both (for my own purposes) back when I had the Elmarit asph (so v5) vs the 28 Summicron. I didn't have the v4 then but found the Elmarit-asph a bit hard edged and contrasty. I wanted to like it because of it's size. It certainly shines in many images we all see with it. I sold my copy because I found the Summicron mroe pleasing. I find that the Elmarit-M (v4) is similar but maybe better across the field at f2.8-4 for landscapes then the faster Summicron. I'm sorry I let the Summicron go but wanted to sell an M9 and the person who bought it convinced me to sell them together! David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted March 31, 2024 Share #15 Posted March 31, 2024 On 3/23/2020 at 5:42 PM, Bo-Sixten said: There is an excellent thread in this forum by Adan called "In praise of Mandler lenses" where you get food for thought on some of these lenses. I have the the v 2 and the v 3 Elmarits and they are both excellent. V3 has a little better edge sharpness at full aperture. Here is a photo taken with v2 28mm 2.8 Elmarit. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! When I see this I see what is called a ‘sfumato’ in art, it is a beautiful picture. The grey tones are excellent, the whites are very neutral, unlike the asph that is so strong in contrasts. Indeed what I try to find also in my Summaron 28 . . Whas the lens coded? Is this a digital file? I know thread is 4 years old. . . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo-Sixten Posted April 1, 2024 Share #16 Posted April 1, 2024 10 hours ago, Alberti said: When I see this I see what is called a ‘sfumato’ in art, it is a beautiful picture. The grey tones are excellent, the whites are very neutral, unlike the asph that is so strong in contrasts. Indeed what I try to find also in my Summaron 28 . . Whas the lens coded? Is this a digital file? I know thread is 4 years old. . . Hi Alberti, thanks for your kind comment. Indeed I too appreciate the older Leica lenses for their less harsh contrast, especially on digital. This lens was not coded and the file is digital from M10M. :)) 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberti Posted April 1, 2024 Share #17 Posted April 1, 2024 I have the M-Rokkor 28mm, which 'cant be beaten'. The colours are good, sharpness too. And handling is super. But two BAD BAD things. 1) has 35 framelines -, well, just too bad. 2) they haze-up over time, I have to have it CLA'd again after 6 years. I used it also in the winter. So I'm looking at a replacement. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The M-Rokkor 28mm field curvature is inwards, so foreground is nicely depicted!! And it goes not outward to infinity. This is a pleasure. Focus = cabin, and that is sharpest. But for the rest large structures are fine. (M9M) Now which Elmarit will help me out, is the question? I had a brief flirt with the Summicron Asph., but for some reason it did not 'bond' with me. For architecture I use Orion-15 and Summaron 28mm. You have to stop down anyway. So the Elmarit-IV is not essential here. Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The M-Rokkor 28mm field curvature is inwards, so foreground is nicely depicted!! And it goes not outward to infinity. This is a pleasure. Focus = cabin, and that is sharpest. But for the rest large structures are fine. (M9M) Now which Elmarit will help me out, is the question? I had a brief flirt with the Summicron Asph., but for some reason it did not 'bond' with me. For architecture I use Orion-15 and Summaron 28mm. You have to stop down anyway. So the Elmarit-IV is not essential here. ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=5146940'>More sharing options...
lct Posted April 1, 2024 Share #18 Posted April 1, 2024 6 hours ago, Alberti said: I have the M-Rokkor 28mm, which 'cant be beaten'. The colours are good, sharpness too. And handling is super. But two BAD BAD things. 1) has 35 framelines -, well, just too bad. 2) they haze-up over time, I have to have it CLA'd again after 6 years. I used it also in the winter. So I'm looking at a replacement. I kept mine as a Mandler-like 28mm lens more compact than the Elmarit 28/2.8 v2. It brings up 28mm framelines thanks to a piece of brass soldered to the flange of the lens (see below), schneideritis dots have been cleaned off and it's been 6-bit coded. I got it modded this way from a German dealer i will give you the name if you're interested. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 3 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/307734-28mm-f28-elmarit-m-v1-v2-images-and-opinions/?do=findComment&comment=5147644'>More sharing options...
Alberti Posted August 28, 2024 Share #19 Posted August 28, 2024 On 4/1/2024 at 9:47 AM, Alberti said: I have the M-Rokkor 28mm, which 'cant be beaten'. The colours are good, sharpness too. And handling is super. But two BAD BAD things. 1) has 35 framelines -, well, just too bad. 2) they haze-up over time, I have to have it CLA'd again after 6 years. I used it also in the winter. So I'm looking at a replacement. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! The M-Rokkor 28mm field curvature is inwards, so foreground is nicely depicted!! And it goes not outward to infinity. This is a pleasure. Focus = cabin, and that is sharpest. But for the rest large structures are fine. (M9M) Now which Elmarit will help me out, is the question? I had a brief flirt with the Summicron Asph., but for some reason it did not 'bond' with me. For architecture I use Orion-15 and Summaron 28mm. You have to stop down anyway. So the Elmarit-IV is not essential here. I looked at the new Nokton 28mm F1.5 - and that also has an characteristic of "getting sharper" in the corners, maybe it should be called different than 'curving inward'. Could be interesting, but any CA will definitely put me off (like several VM's I tried). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
shirubadanieru Posted August 28, 2024 Share #20 Posted August 28, 2024 Light Lens Lab just announced a reissue of this lens, ready for pre-order. https://lightlenslab.co/blogs/upcoming-project/light-lens-lab-28mm-f-2-8-nine-element-now-available 1 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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