The S3 pricing is a mistake

[glenerrolrd]

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The comparison to Fuji is typical of a Japanese Consumer Products company .   Any specification that can easily be measured or defined is compared .  Examples MPs , pixel size etc. Almost none of which are particularly relevant to comparisons .  

Image Quality is a good example ...DxO Mark does a good job of evaluating sensor performance and explains how attributes affect typical usage .  Portraits for example benefit from color depth which impacts your ability to define small graduations of tones .  Landscape is more interested in dynamic range because it allows you to pull back the shadows ( and varies by ISO utilized ) .  High ISO performance is important in Sports to allow for the higher shutter speeds .   

In addition cameras are set up thru firmware to spread the dynamic range across the tone curve ....Nikon s D5 squeezes the highlights and shadows to achieve amazing high ISO performance ..at the expense of midtone separation .  A MF camera should have superb base ISO performance assuming at least some tripod usage . 

The Leica sensor used in the SL2 is very very competitive with ANY sensor out their ..DxO rates the Q a 96 and the S1R 99 . That’s comparable to the newest Sony sensor in the A7R4 . So the BS about Leica having old technology is just that BS .

OVF verse EVF .....the viewfinder is a lot more than a means to focus .. An OVF allows the photographer to gain a feel for the subject I find impossible with an EVF .  For seeing and composing I would take an OVF any day .  An OVF can see everything you can see ..meaning a full DR as the eye sees it .  Try that with an EVF ..example fashion on a beach ..good luck .  We all know that OVF s can be outstanding or crap from the days of the SLR cameras . The Leica S has a typical Leica OVF which is terrific .

On the other hand an OVF is awful for focus and EVF with a magnified view  just establishes a totally different level of accuracy .  Using fast lenses wide open with an OVF is almost luck dependent . 

I could create a list of  dozen or more attributes that might be used to compare a Fuji EVF MF camera to the S3 ..in the end a good choice is dependent on the weights (importance ) the photographer places on these attributes . 

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[BernardC]

7 hours ago, frame-it said:

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That's almost what I paid for a new S-E four years ago. The S2 is also doing very well for a 12-year-old camera. The S-006 is the outlier here, at 160,000 JPY less than the functionally-similar S-E (that's about 1,500 Euro or dollars) . That particular body must have issues.

[BernardC]

9 hours ago, xiaubauu2009 said:

so, the S3 is only a 14bit....  didn:t realise that is the case.

It's a 14-bit file in a 16-bit container. The sensor puts-out 14 bits of real information, which is more than most sensors do. It's in a 16-bit container for the same reason that Photoshop gives you the option of working on 16-bit TIFFs, but not 14-bit TIFFs.

Those are class-leading numbers, but people get confused because some brands emphasize the size of the container without mentioning the fact that they don't fill it completely.

[davidmknoble]

15 hours ago, frame-it said:

if you already have the S lenses, and trade in an S007 it might be ok for many

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Someone else taught me about the S system - you have to be careful reading about Bit depth - most of these cameras are 14 bit color depth, in 16 bit DNG files.  I am not aware of any camera yet made that has 16 bit color recording....  I did not know this til the other day....

[frame-it]

26 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

Someone else taught me about the S system - you have to be careful reading about Bit depth - most of these cameras are 14 bit color depth, in 16 bit DNG files.  I am not aware of any camera yet made that has 16 bit color recording....  I did not know this til the other day....

and you have tried the in camera 16bit raw> 16bit tiff from the GFX 100?

[mike3996]

11 hours ago, darylgo said:

At $9500 Leica would have great demand, perhaps too much.

This is a great point. The S series probably is getting more niche it ever was, the people at Leica have limited resources to build these and either they lower the price and hire more people (with more managers, red tape, tps report templates) to accommodate the increased demand (with clear risk that maybe it won't sell that well at $10k either).

Or they scale down, control demand with higher prices and manage just fine with existing personnel. And their risk is also better managed.

[harryzet]

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where ist erwin puts and the overgaard-guy when you need them?

[davidmknoble]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

and you have tried the in camera 16bit raw> 16bit tiff from the GFX 100?

I have not, I am just passing on information I received.  I do not think that all camera companies post similar information in this block making it hard to compare.  If the GFX 100 is really 16 bit, vs. 14 bit in a 16 bit container, it would be the first one I'm aware of...  I have not used that particular model.

So, I looked it up:  https://www.fujifilm.com/products/digital_cameras/gfx/fujifilm_gfx100/features/page_02.html

This says the GFX 100 produces 8bit and 16bit TIFF files, which are a container, just like the S produces 16bit DNG files.  However, it says in the specifications 14bit / 16bit RAW files.  With no information it is not clear that the GFX 100 produces actual 16 bit color, but appears to be the same as the S in producing 14 bit color depth, housed in a 16 bit file, which gives room for future expansion without changing for the file format.

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

and you have tried the in camera 16bit raw> 16bit tiff from the GFX 100?

Myself, no.

According to what I've read, 16-bit mode adds about 0.2 stops of DR in the GFX, which is a lot less than you would expect if the 16 bits were 'filled." That difference is all in the shadow noise, of course, so it may not be visible in real life. There's a reason why 0.3 stops was/is the minimum increment in the DIN and ASA systems.

It should be interesting to see how the S3 tests, compared to the competition. I'm sure all the usual experts can't wait to let their Rawdigger/Matlab scripts loose on the DNGs. We will find-out soon enough.

On a related note, lens contrast and flare suppression have a much bigger influence on shadow detail. That's why you have to consider the imaging chain as a whole: camera, lens, shading, atmospheric conditions, processing, output (hard to display 14 stops of range in the real world), etc.

[davidmknoble]

Sorry, could not edit my old post.  @BernardC was kind enough to share in a different thread the specifics on color deapth vs. file storage (DNG, TIFF).  It makes much more sense now.  Thanks again....

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb BernardC:

[...]
It should be interesting to see how the S3 tests, compared to the competition. I'm sure all the usual experts can't wait to let their Rawdigger/Matlab scripts loose on the DNGs. We will find-out soon enough.

[...]

Based on testing for ‘push-ability’ of M10 Monochrom and X1D II high ISO files, neither the X1D, nor the Fuji GFX 50S/R will be a match for the S3 in this respect.  The Hasselblad and the Fujis use a much older sensor which creates high ISO files that show artifacts when pushed hard to recover shadow detail.  The S3 and the M10M sensors share the same pixel design.  I don’t have access to an S3 to compare but may post some ISO 3200 files from the X1D II and the M10M.

[Joe]

 

For sure I would like to have more resolution, but the S3 landed with a thud.

I feel the pricing is gouging, not premium pricing, which I would pay (and have paid) for the value received.

Folks somehow feel Pros don't care about pricing, if you are running a business you do care.

Folks think Leica should make a living, actually we all feel that way. 

Folks think we should we should concentrate on making creative photos, cameras don't make the photo. Thanks for the insight.

Folks think the S3 is handmade, it is hand assembled. The camera body is from 2010, Leica manufactures cameras, they have it figured out by now.

Folks want to compare the S3 to other camera brands. The S3 comparison is to the S007. What new buyers would consider coming into this system?

Folks think we should wait three years, then buy. As mentioned, a very sad commentary.

Folks want to know about the focusing system. Is it the same as 007 or different? No comment from Leica.

The S3 launch was poorly done. Confusing specs, no DNG's to download, 14bit files vs 16bit, no announced Trade In program, only one field S3 review. After all, they have had some time to get it right.

Leica's attitude towards the S system is disappointing, as if they really don't care about it.

No need to put the stink on me to say if I don't like it go somewhere else. I've been deep in the S system since 2010 and paid list price.

My apologies to the Leica employees if I have offended anyone. I believe they are brilliant designers, and engineers. Leica dealers are superb, especially Leica Miami, they care.

Thank you to setuprog for starting this thread, it is an important conversation.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[helged]

36 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

The S3 and the M10M sensors share the same pixel design.  

Interesting. For curiosity, is this based on similar pixel size or other info?

[LeicaR10]

Darylgo,  You are absolutely right about S photographers or new to the system to add to their S lens collection.  The previously owned lenses in mint condition and AF motors updated are certainly a steal IMO.  These lenses are being sold at most 1/2 price of new.  Most S photographers take very good care of their equipment due to cost and needing the gear to function at all times.  Right now, the Leica Store in San Francisco and Camera West stores have a very high number of mint condition S lenses available.  Personally, I deal with those three stores and always find the used gear to be exactly as described or better.  I am sure the other Leica Stores are the same.  As for the upgrade rumor, I was told the same thing on several occasions.  I would think this might be the case after initial sales of new S3 cameras ebbs.  Guess that is a wait and see.   Same goes for the previously owned S2, S006 and S007 camera bodies, these are also excellent buys and many are less expensive than 35mm FF cameras.  Same goes for S lenses.  IMO, anyone wanting to get into the S system, now is a great time to piece together a great system with previously owned and mint condition S body of their fancy and S lenses.  The also good news, anyone wanting to use S lenses on the SL or SLII can do so and get great results, albeit the AF will be a tad slow.  Last, IMO this is a great time for anyone wanting to explore medium format with the most excellent S system and lenses and not break their bank accounts.  r/ Mark

[Chaemono]

vor 25 Minuten schrieb helged:

Interesting. For curiosity, is this based on similar pixel size or other info?

No, no other info, unfortunately, just based on the same pixel pitch, pixel size, pixel density.  It’s no coincidence that S (Typ 007) sensor is 37.5 MPx.  It has the identical pixel pitch, pixel size, pixel density as the M (Typ 240).  https://www.digicamdb.com/compare/leica_s-type-007-vs-leica_m-typ-240/

The same applies to the S3 and the M10 Monochrom.  I subscribe to Nicci’s logic in #38 here: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/305447-leica-m10-r/page/2/#comments

 

[John Smith]

5 hours ago, frame-it said:

and you have tried the in camera 16bit raw> 16bit tiff from the GFX 100?

Just an FYI. Leica USA describes the color depth as 16 bit. See here. What that I means I haven't a clue.

[hoppyman]

I don’t think that a sensor upgrade to an existing camera would be possible at all, at least at any practical price point  there is a lot more to the electronics than just the physical sensor assembly of course.

[darylgo]

1 hour ago, LeicaR10 said:

Darylgo,  You are absolutely right about S photographers or new to the system to add to their S lens collection.  The previously owned lenses in mint condition and AF motors updated are certainly a steal IMO.  These lenses are being sold at most 1/2 price of new.  Most S photographers take very good care of their equipment due to cost and needing the gear to function at all times.  Right now, the Leica Store in San Francisco and Camera West stores have a very high number of mint condition S lenses available.  Personally, I deal with those three stores and always find the used gear to be exactly as described or better.  I am sure the other Leica Stores are the same.  As for the upgrade rumor, I was told the same thing on several occasions.  I would think this might be the case after initial sales of new S3 cameras ebbs.  Guess that is a wait and see.   Same goes for the previously owned S2, S006 and S007 camera bodies, these are also excellent buys and many are less expensive than 35mm FF cameras.  Same goes for S lenses.  IMO, anyone wanting to get into the S system, now is a great time to piece together a great system with previously owned and mint condition S body of their fancy and S lenses.  The also good news, anyone wanting to use S lenses on the SL or SLII can do so and get great results, albeit the AF will be a tad slow.  Last, IMO this is a great time for anyone wanting to explore medium format with the most excellent S system and lenses and not break their bank accounts.  r/ Mark

Mark, all good points, the S pricing reflects issues with the system discussed extensively on these forums.  But, I agree it's a great time to get into a system that's not getting the hyperbole of others.  

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[darylgo]

50 minutes ago, hoppyman said:

I don’t think that a sensor upgrade to an existing camera would be possible at all, at least at any practical price point  there is a lot more to the electronics than just the physical sensor assembly of course.

Perhaps, but isn't the processor the same, I'm inclined to agree that it wouldn't be feasible as I've learned with upgrading computers.   

[01af]

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