Leica M10-R

[silverchrome]

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So how is this model going to affect the digital M release cycle?

Can we expect a longer wait for the M11, M12 etc?

 

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, M10 for me said:

Could you not ask yourself as well why not the sensor of the Q2 then? I just put in a post in the german forum. I wonder why it need that multitude of sensors. 

 Because Leica needs to fulfil its partnership with Panasonic, by sharing the S1R 47MP sensor across Q2 and SL2. 
Then Leica needs to make it financially bearable to produce a unique 65MP 45x30 sensor for its S3. So cutting down the same waffer with same pixel pitch between M10 Monochrom, M10-R & S3 is the only way. 
 

Fujifilm & Sony are using the same principle with their APS-C 26MP, 24x36 60MP & 44x33 100MP. They are etched from the same waffer, with the same pixel pitch. Reducing cost. MF sensor I the center. FF around them. And APS-C on the outer third. 

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[mishi]

Interesting! Thank you for sharing. May I ask where you found these pictures?

If this is the rumored high res camera previously called the “M10X” with the M10M sensor, I wonder why it doesn’t have the same “12.5K” setting on the ISO dial. Maybe it’s just a prototype and they didn’t have that part?

[colint544]

2 hours ago, SiggiGun said:

I don't think so professional photographer need small files in jpg. Transmission speed is key not resolution power

I'm sorry, it's not quite clear to me what it is that you don't think. Is it that it will extend the life of the M10, replace it, or be sold alongside it?

Agree that professional photographers, especially press photographers, don't need or want huge megapixel sensors. And whilst there are a few pro photographers who use Leica M cameras for work purposes, I think that the majority of Leica's M camera customers are enthusiasts, rather than pros. Leica know their market.

 I take my hat off to anyone who can make a living shooting only M cameras. Jeff Ascough used to shoot wedding photography on Leica M's, and his work was absolutely sublime, stunning, but even he now shoots Canon DSLRs.

[bherman01545]

I think that a 40-47mp M series camera is certainly a logical progression, and we agree that it makes sense for some, but not for others.

So now, let's talk about lenses...

The SL/SL2 line came out with the highest-resolving lenses in Leica's lineup, capable of resolving 40-80 lines/mm (or whatever Peter Karbe said) to keep up with the ultra-high resolution sensor. These lenses were designed from the ground up for high-res digital.

Now that a 40+ MP sensor is on the horizon the M Series, with the exception of the 50mm APO Summicron, how will some of the Leica 20-30+ year old designs hold up?

For example: The 50mm F2 Summicron 11826 is a 20-30 year old design, (or older) the 50mm F/1.4 Summilux ASPH FLE came out at least 10-years ago?

I mean, I won't be 'pixel-peeping' to that level, but the SL lenses are supposed to be on another level than most of the M lenses.

-Brad

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, mishi said:

If this is the rumored high res camera previously called the “M10X” with the M10M sensor, I wonder why it doesn’t have the same “12.5K” setting on the ISO dial. Maybe it’s just a prototype and they didn’t have that part?

Because Monochrom sensor are twice more sensitive than Bayer coloured one. 
So future M10-X will likely be limited to ISO 100-50,000 instead of M10’s Monochrom 160-100,000 

Therefore the ISO dial will be limited to 6,400. 

[mishi]

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3 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Because Monochrom sensor are twice more sensitive than Bayer coloured one. 
So future M10-X will likely be limited to ISO 100-50,000 instead of M10’s Monochrom 160-100,000 

Therefore the ISO dial will be limited to 6,400. 

Oh cool! I didn’t know that. Thank you

[FrozenInTime]

Is it logical that there will also be a M10-RP ?

[M11 for me]

Isn't the R the P at the same time?

[maxfairclough]

It's petty, but I hate the Leica script on the top plate. I like my camera to be absolutely minimalistic. We already have the red dot at the front.

Edited January 18, 2020 by maxfairclough

[Jeff S]

2 hours ago, mishi said:

Interesting! Thank you for sharing. May I ask where you found these pictures?

If this is the rumored high res camera previously called the “M10X” with the M10M sensor, I wonder why it doesn’t have the same “12.5K” setting on the ISO dial. Maybe it’s just a prototype and they didn’t have that part?

Nokishita via Leica Rumors...

https://leicarumors.com/2020/01/18/leica-m10-r-camera-coming-next-already-registered-with-the-fcc-pictures-included.aspx/

Jeff

[michali]

2 hours ago, bherman01545 said:

I think that a 40-47mp M series camera is certainly a logical progression, and we agree that it makes sense for some, but not for others.

So now, let's talk about lenses...

The SL/SL2 line came out with the highest-resolving lenses in Leica's lineup, capable of resolving 40-80 lines/mm (or whatever Peter Karbe said) to keep up with the ultra-high resolution sensor. These lenses were designed from the ground up for high-res digital.

Now that a 40+ MP sensor is on the horizon the M Series, with the exception of the 50mm APO Summicron, how will some of the Leica 20-30+ year old designs hold up?

For example: The 50mm F2 Summicron 11826 is a 20-30 year old design, (or older) the 50mm F/1.4 Summilux ASPH FLE came out at least 10-years ago?

I mean, I won't be 'pixel-peeping' to that level, but the SL lenses are supposed to be on another level than most of the M lenses.

-Brad

Brad- to answer your question, pretty well.  Here's an image taken with the SL2 (47MP) & my 59 year old 1961 50mm Summicron

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 Summicron f2 @ f2

 

 

 

 

[bags27]

Won't putting a much denser sensor in the M10 mean it's really no longer a 10? It will need a processor tweak, and it will certainly affect battery life. But if they do brand it an M10-R, won't that mean that the "real" M11 must depart in other, more significant ways? such as the rumored built-in EVF?

Less importantly, what will LUF do with photos from the M10-R: will you keep it part of the M10 thread or make folks post on a separate thread, as you did with the Q/Q2 and SL/SL2, thus separating and weakening those communities?....even while keeping the TL/TL2 together for no apparent reason. grumble, grumble....

Edited January 18, 2020 by bags27

[james.liam]

It's interesting in that they appear to be adopting a modified Sony approach into prolonging a product cycle, as with the a7.

Also lets them amortize the superb M10 body shell and mechanicals. As Jaap always emphasizes, the heat dissipation issue always rears its ugly head. Buys more time to solve this for future models.

I'm hoping for a new Visoflex with its own separate battery source to supplement any draw on the main battery thus permitting a higher resolution and frame rate?

Also, a high-res M10 buys them time to release an array of lenses appropriate to the new sensor's abilities and what's to come in an M11, now possibly 2-3 years off.

First lenses in line one might postulate, would be those longer in the tooth and/or indispensable for the M system:

50 Summilux (2004)

50 Noctilux (2008)--perhaps in a carbon fibre shell

35 Summicron ASPH (1996)

50 Summicron (1979)

90 Summicron APO (1998)

??? new Bi & Tri-Elmars ???

Edited January 18, 2020 by james.liam

[helged]

As @jonoslack reports in his M10M review, the Maestro II processor is on the limit to (continuously) process 41 mp images. The same is the case for the S3, by the way, slightly dropping max fps compared to S007, both sharing Maestro II. I would therefore think that M11, or at least the high res version of M11, will embed the Maestro III processor introduced in SL2. If so, everything will speed up, and quite significantly so. Whether a high-speed M is at the top of the M ussr's wish list, is something else... 

[james.liam]

16 minutes ago, helged said:

As @jonoslack reports in his M10M review, the Maestro II processor is on the limit to (continuously) process 41 mp images. The same is the case for the S3, by the way, slightly dropping max fps compared to S007, both sharing Maestro II. I would therefore think that M11, or at least the high res version of M11, will embed the Maestro III processor introduced in SL2. If so, everything will speed up, and quite significantly so. Whether a high-speed M is at the top of the M ussr's wish list, is something else... 

The bottom plate, removable and serving no other purpose may need to be re-purposed, and perhaps using different material as a heat sink or accommodating a higher capacity battery, freeing up the compartment where the present battery is located for better/bigger electronics. 

Edited January 18, 2020 by james.liam

[FrankF]

6 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Fujifilm & Sony are using the same principle with their APS-C 26MP, 24x36 60MP & 44x33 100MP. They are etched from the same waffer, with the same pixel pitch. Reducing cost. MF sensor I the center. FF around them. And APS-C on the outer third. 

Is there some inside information you have that says that on a  single Silicon wafer, Sony is mixing their different sensor products?  or is this speculation?

Note that this IS possible, but seems unlikely to me.....  I would be fascinated to know.....

It is most likely that on a single wafer, one type of sensor is made.  The same physical layout is shared over other sensors, with different numbers of pixels and maybe APS-C or FF.

Basically, same pixwl design, differing number of pixels.

[nicci78]

They are not different sensors. They are exactly the same, cut down into different size. Actually there are 4 different cut sizes. I forgot the real 645 medium format 150MP sensor used by PhaseOne

Once the wafer photo etched, you can bond over them whatever micro lenses and filter stacks you fancy. That's why, you can turn this part into X-Trans, the other one into Monochrom and the last one into Bayer colour. 

Sony semiconductors genius is to bring down the cost with different size of sensor over the same round wafer. You just have to use same underlining tech : CCD or CMOS, same pixel pitch, same wiring method : BIS or FSI. You can even stack memory behind the sensor, after. Such as A9 sensor. 

Leica has done this since the M 240. The Leica Max 24MP is a cut down version of Leica S (typ 007) 37.5MP sensor. Same tech, different cut size. But huge scale economy for Leica, because nobody made 37.5MP or 65MP 45x30 sensor. And Leica did not seem to sell tons of S cameras. 

[John Miranda]

I don't understand why there is such debate over inserting newer sensor and electronic components in a digital M... I owned Nikon’s early D100 with six megapixels, (relatively) poor high iso performance, and lower dynamic range and have watched their digital body capability improve massively through the more recent D850, with not only ~46MP but better ISO, battery life, fps, and dynamic range than the earlier bodies.  Everything got better. It is like arguing against higher capacity memory cards at the same price as yesterday’s model. .  With the D850 I can crop like crazy, make huge prints or do whatever, yes, even handheld.  For sure, I’ll find a higher resolution M appealing.  Everything about it will be better.  M10 rocks, but sometimes i want prints that are 40-60 inches wide, and would welcome 40+MP.  Or ability to crop when i only have a 50mm lens on hand but wish i brought a 75mm lens, etc...

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[FrankF]

I am an IC guy,  I understand the technology and what is possible.  What I read in your response is that they cut through a chip to make it smaller in pixel count.  I am sure this is not possible. 

Maybe you meant that they could make a wafer , or rather mask, that accommodate different chips on the same wafer..... done all the time.....  But that means tha if you have a big order for one design on the wafer, you are wasting space for that chip and also making chips you can not sell ( remember, you got an order for  1  size, not the other).  It works for small volumes, is a disaster for large volumes.  Can you explain your comments more so that I understand better?