Monochrom M - lenses and future ?

[proenca]

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Hi there,

Lots of been written about the new M10M, quite a few images around already and its fantastic to see Leica developing a full monochromatic sensor from the start ( rather than removing the color array from an exsisting one ) , albeit I suspect the M11 will have this sensor with the color filter on top, but oh well :)

The sensor is lovely and better than the 246 - although the evolution was enourmous ( from a tech point of view ) from thje M9m -> 246 rather than 246->M10m apart from resolution which is , well, superb now.

But is it ?

One thing that I do not see anywhere, is lenses selection and how valid is the M10m with all its 42mp glory in BW when  97% or more of the Leica lenses lineup are not nearly optimized or can handle that resolution and take full advantage of it.

Example : 50mm Summilux ASPH - fantastic lens but its 15 years old. when it came out, the M8 was rolling out. Leica 21 and 24 Summiluxes ? Yeah lovely bt they are TEN years old now.

So I'm sure that the 50APO 75 Nocti and such are optimized and can handle the resolution bump, but the vast majority of the Leica M lens line up simply can't - or better said, wont see great advantage to use the 42mp.

Leica is a slow company - we all know that - but their lens lineup is not really what once was due to the increasing sensor tech which taxes and stresses the lens much more - while a 50 ASPH in a 18 or 24mp is lovely and glorious is just "meh" on a 42-44mp.

Of course we can use older lenses on the body and thats part of the Leica magic and charm - I use for nostalgia reasons a 1950 Summaron 3.5 on my M9 - but its far from optimized, sharp wide open ( or acceptable sharp lol ).

Just a friendly food for though and exchange ideas :)

 

[UliWer]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb proenca:

One thing that I do not see anywhere, is lenses selection and how valid is the M10m with all its 42mp glory in BW when  97% or more of the Leica lenses lineup are not nearly optimized or can handle that resolution and take full advantage of it. ...

Now let us imagine just for a moment that there was really anything like a sensor "outresolving" a lens:

What would happen to your photos using an "outresolved" lens? Would the "old" lenses stop delivering light to the sensor, or would the sensor refuse to accept the "bad" light from such a lens?

If a newer lens design shows more resolution than its precedssor, would this not be visible on film or an M8, M9, M (Typ 240),  M10 - but only with a "high resolution" sensor?

 I think we already found out that a 50 Summilux asph showed higher resolution  than a non-asph with "traditional" sensors. But we did not stop using the non-asph lenses then and those old lenses delivered what one expected from them and I see now reason at all to act different now. If one day there will be a new Summilux asph with much higher resolution than the present one (and an obvious price tag …) it will be bought. Until then all other lenses going back to the Hektor from 1930 can and will be used (more or less).

 

 

 

 

Edited February 12, 2020 by UliWer

[Tp2000]

Think it is a reasonable concern a few people have raised. Not sure if you subscribe to Reid Reviews, however in the initial M10M article, he references the concern specifically and states that there’s little evidence that latest high resolution sensors are “out-resolving” the existing lineup of lenses. I think in the Slack review, there’s a reference to this concern too (and he doesn’t seem overly bothered by it).

 

 

 

[digitalfx]

 

15 hours ago, proenca said:

One thing that I do not see anywhere, is lenses selection and how valid is the M10m with all its 42mp glory in BW when  97% or more of the Leica lenses lineup are not nearly optimized or can handle that resolution and take full advantage of it.


 

 

I have never had a second thought using older lenses on new sensors...frankly just the opposite. 

 "97% or more of the Leica lenses lineup" can handle new sensors just fine. And the M10M is a joy to use with any of them.

[Jeff S]

Cameras out-resolving lenses or vice versa?  As Roger Cicala (my favorite lens expert and writer) says, "that's not how it works."

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/10/more-ultra-high-resolution-mtf-experiments/

I hope Roger won't mind my excerpting his addendum in this link...

Appendix: Why Perceptual Megapixels are Stupid

I get asked several times a week if this lens or that is ‘capable of resolving’ this number of megapixels. Some people seem to think a lens should be ‘certified’ for a certain number of pixels or something. That’s not how it works. That’s not how any of it works.

How it does work is this. Any image you capture is not as sharp as reality. Take a picture of a bush and enlarge it to 100%. You probably can’t see if there are ants on the leaves. But in reality, you could walk over to the bush (enlarge it if you will) and see if there are ants by looking at a couple of leaves.

What if I got a better camera and a better lens? Well, theoretically, things would be so good I could see the ants if I enlarged the image enough. MTF is somewhat of a measurement of how sharp that image would be and how much detail it contains. (The detail part would be the higher frequency MTF.) That would, of course, be the MTF of the entire system, camera, and lens.

Lots of people think that will be ‘whichever is less of the camera and lens.’ For example, my camera can resolve 61 megapixels, but my lens can only resolve 30 megapixels, so all I can see is 30 megapixels.

That’s not how it works. How it does work is very simple math: System MTF = Camera MTF x Lens MTF. MTF maxes at 1.0 because 1.0 is perfect. So let’s say my camera MTF is 0.7, and my lens MTF is 0.7, then my system MTF is 0.49 (Lens MTF x Camera MTF). This is actually a pretty reasonable system.

Now, let’s say I get a much better camera with much higher resolution; the camera MTF is 0.9. The system MTF with the same lens also increases: 0.7 X 0.9 = 0.63. On the other hand, I could do the same thing if I bought a much better lens and kept it on the same camera. The camera basically never ‘out resolves the lens.’

You could kind of get that ‘perceptual megapixel’ thing if either the lens (or the camera) really sucks. Let say we were using a crappy kit zoom lens with an MTF of 0.3. With the old camera; 0.3 X 0.7 =.21. Let’s spend a fortune on the newer, better camera, and we get 0.3 X 0.9 = 0.27. So our overall system MTF only went up a bit (0.07) because the lens really sucked. But if it had been just an average lens or a better lens (let say the MTF was 0.6 or 0.8), we’d have gotten a pretty similar improvement.

If you have a reasonably good lens and/or a reasonably good camera, upgrading either one upgrades your images. If you ask something like ‘is my camera going to out resolve this lens’ you sound silly.

Roger’s rule: If you have either a crappy lens or crappy camera, improve the crappy part first; you get more bang for your $. I just saw a thread for someone wanting to upgrade to the newest 60-megapixel camera, and all of his lenses were average zooms. I got nauseous.

(Written by Roger Cicala)

 

Jeff

 

 

[Jeff S]

14 hours ago, proenca said:

Lots of been written about the new M10M, quite a few images around already and its fantastic to see Leica developing a full monochromatic sensor from the start ( rather than removing the color array from an exsisting one ) , albeit I suspect the M11 will have this sensor with the color filter on top, but oh well

 

The M10M sensor was derived from the S3 (the same way the M240 sensor came from the S007).  Nicci explains this well in other thread discussions.  The M10M sensor will also be shared with the forthcoming M10R.  In this case, however, the monochrome version was released before the color version.  Without this sensor sharing, there would be no economies and prices would likely be prohibitive.  Various other camera companies do the same thing, sometimes sharing sensor tech across companies.  

Jeff

[Herr Barnack]

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Quote

...One thing that I do not see anywhere, is lenses selection and how valid is the M10m with all its 42mp glory in BW when  97% or more of the Leica lenses lineup are not nearly optimized or can handle that resolution and take full advantage of it.

Example : 50mm Summilux ASPH - fantastic lens but its 15 years old. when it came out, the M8 was rolling out. Leica 21 and 24 Summiluxes ? Yeah lovely bt they are TEN years old now.

So I'm sure that the 50APO 75 Nocti and such are optimized and can handle the resolution bump, but the vast majority of the Leica M lens line up simply can't - or better said, wont see great advantage to use the 42mp...

If the above is true, would it not also be true that those who have sunk tens of thousands of dollars into the S cameras and lenses have wasted their money if their goal was a high level of  image quality?

I cannot see how any of the above arguments hold water.  JMHO.

I think any lens - M or S system - that is in current production can hold its own with the highest resolution sensors that the M and S cameras are built around.  If not, people would be complaining that their M10 Monochrom images look like rubbish.  We would have Leica saying, "You spent $8300 USD on an M10 Monochrom, but you have to buy the $8800 USD 50mm Summicron APO for it if you want to get anything resembling high quality images out of the camera."

Telling your M10 Monochrom customers that would qualify as corporate suicide and would create even more Leica haters than are already in existence.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[UliWer]

Well, I presume that we'll see quite a lot of marketing (professional or armchair) talk about super-lenses (with equivalent price tags) which alone will show the real advantage of a sensor with so many megapixels. And I also presume not so few people will follow this marketing strategy and buy some new super-lenses for their super sensors.

We already had this talk the other way round - even by some people who recently decided that Leica left their Zen or Taoist or Aristotelian or Platonic approach to lens design. They told us that a 24 MP sensor would not make appropriate use of the resolving capacity of modern lenses. 

Leica Camera AG will not make any profit with lenses if people go on using their Summarons, or Elmarits or even Jupiters. It is up to the users if they bother about this or if they say: I like what I see and don't mind about optimized glass for maximized silicon. 

[dkmoore]

On 2/12/2020 at 8:09 AM, proenca said:

Leica is a slow company - we all know that - but their lens lineup is not really what once was due to the increasing sensor tech which taxes and stresses the lens much more - while a 50 ASPH in a 18 or 24mp is lovely and glorious is just "meh" on a 42-44mp.

 

your last comment claims you are just making convo but it seems more like spreading false propaganda. The reason this bothers me is someone with lesser knowledge may read your post and shy away from the M10M or 50 Lux for no reason at all because your argument is invalid. 

The 50 Summilux-ASPH is fantastic with M10M.   I would know because I have both. 

[mmradman]

10 hours ago, dkmoore said:

your last comment claims you are just making convo but it seems more like spreading false propaganda. The reason this bothers me is someone with lesser knowledge may read your post and shy away from the M10M or 50 Lux for no reason at all because your argument is invalid. 

The 50 Summilux-ASPH is fantastic with M10M.   I would know because I have both. 

First i read your post and than i read original post, in its entirety.  OP makes a valid point, and as he said, lets have friendly discussion. I think i have right to say something here, I have both APO Summicron M 50mm and Sumilux M 50mm ASPH, the former is far superior than the latter but Summilux is excellent on 24Mp (M246) and 46MP (Nikon Z7).  I usually choose to carry Summilux as lens to be used in "high risk" environment. 

Problem with internet, as demonstrated here, is that people cherry pick words and draw erroneous conclusions.  You are correct in saying anyone reading ones opinion selectively will draw wrong conclusion, however it is not our job, or responsibility or duty to act as Leica sales brigade and keep quiet, if someone wants to use 10 buck bottom of a coke bottle as a lens nothing wrong with that.

My view is it is in Leica's interest to convince buyers that newer lenses are required to fully utilise full potential of the latest camera while being clever not to undermine older products. Having best and latest is mostly valid if one aims in shooting test images and demonstrating prowess of the equipment, which seems to be a dominant trend, at least in photo forums, goes well with other trappings of the high end consumer society.  People with modest camera equipment produce spectacular images, but lets not spoil the illusory perceptions that exist in the Leica universe.

As we know, or should know, any lens will produce image, quality, either technical or emotional, comes form the photographer not camera or lens or both. 

[Keith (M)]

My two-pence for what it is worth (not a lot, I know!) as a non pixel-peeper. In my first week with my wonderful M10M I have used 50mm Summilux-M ASPH, 50mm ZM C-Sonnar f1.5, 1967 35mm Summaron f2.8, 35mm Elmarit-R f2.8, 60mm Macro-Elmarit-R f2.8 and 1955 5cm Summicron Collapsible LTM.  Apart from needing to add contrast to photos taken with the latter, I have found the OoC results to be very pleasing indeed - results can be seen here in my M10M Flickr album.  I shall continue to test and explore the capabilities of M10M and lenses, but just as importantly to enjoy using them.

[dkmoore]

5 hours ago, mmradman said:

First i read your post and than i read original post, in its entirety.  OP makes a valid point, and as he said, lets have friendly discussion. I think i have right to say something here, I have both APO Summicron M 50mm and Sumilux M 50mm ASPH, the former is far superior than the latter but Summilux is excellent on 24Mp (M246) and 46MP (Nikon Z7).  I usually choose to carry Summilux as lens to be used in "high risk" environment. 

Problem with internet, as demonstrated here, is that people cherry pick words and draw erroneous conclusions.  You are correct in saying anyone reading ones opinion selectively will draw wrong conclusion, however it is not our job, or responsibility or duty to act as Leica sales brigade and keep quiet, if someone wants to use 10 buck bottom of a coke bottle as a lens nothing wrong with that.

My view is it is in Leica's interest to convince buyers that newer lenses are required to fully utilise full potential of the latest camera while being clever not to undermine older products. Having best and latest is mostly valid if one aims in shooting test images and demonstrating prowess of the equipment, which seems to be a dominant trend, at least in photo forums, goes well with other trappings of the high end consumer society.  People with modest camera equipment produce spectacular images, but lets not spoil the illusory perceptions that exist in the Leica universe.

As we know, or should know, any lens will produce image, quality, either technical or emotional, comes form the photographer not camera or lens or both. 

Not the forum police. Just a forum patron that is easily annoyed by people that make claims based on zero fact, testing, or evidence. 
 

If the OP states “I hate older Leica lenses like the 50 Lux on my Monochrom or Canon 5DSR and want higher res lenses like 50 app” I would have never chimed in  

I also find it slightly hypocritical to make that claim about me but no harm no foul. But anyway, none of this really even matters. Some random post from the OP with zero data most likely will never deter anyone anyway. 
 

 

 

[mmradman]

At this rate LUF will be frequented only by self congratulatory patrons.

[dkmoore]

1 hour ago, mmradman said:

At this rate LUF will be frequented only by self congratulatory patrons.

Eh, ok. lots of hypocrisy happening here. 
 

Fine, I am a terrible forum member. Guilty. 
 

[geoffreyg]

There is a rather simple point that is being missed here: the 97% suggestion overlooks the reality: that Leica lenses (from the beginning) were good, and got better over time. So a lens from 1950 might not be as good as one from 1990 which was (maybe) surpassed by one from 2015. So first, we have to look at how good they were, and how they compared. There is no doubt that the current (expensive) lenses are superior, but how much so? And does it matter? I would suggest if you have lets say one of the weaker Leica lenses, you may not be satisfied with the high-res camera, but probably you weren't satisfied with it anyway on a digital platform, which tends to be more demanding than 35mm film. 

So I don't buy the "lets lump most all the lenses into one group" as 97%. Its likely there are tiers involved. And then there is the comparison with other lenses, Zeiss, Voigtlander, etc. too. In general, I've stayed in the economical side of the Leica lens lineup, 'crons and not 'luxes, a generation or two back in some cases. And I've never noticed any softness on the MM1 or the M240. OK, the Voigtlander 15mm v.1 isn't comparable to the Leica 21mm SEM, but then again, there isn't that much invested in it either. It suffices. And therein lies the answer: check your lenses against your own ideals, check with the monochrome of your choice. You may need to update some of them, but most are likely just fine. If not, then you've been skimping too long to be part of this party.    

[Daedalus2000]

21 hours ago, Keith (M) said:

My two-pence for what it is worth (not a lot, I know!) as a non pixel-peeper. In my first week with my wonderful M10M I have used 50mm Summilux-M ASPH, 50mm ZM C-Sonnar f1.5, 1967 35mm Summaron f2.8, 35mm Elmarit-R f2.8, 60mm Macro-Elmarit-R f2.8 and 1955 5cm Summicron Collapsible LTM.  Apart from needing to add contrast to photos taken with the latter, I have found the OoC results to be very pleasing indeed - results can be seen here in my M10M Flickr album.  I shall continue to test and explore the capabilities of M10M and lenses, but just as importantly to enjoy using them.

I have not checked a lot of M10M images, but your Flickr album looks great. The first image of the 503CX shows how well the 50lux works with the m10m. Thanks

Edited February 15, 2020 by Daedalus2000

[Ken Abrahams]

My 35 M Summicron ASPH works better on the M10M than the MM1. In saying that, on another forum page I suggested Leica making a better Summicron 35mm M lens, something similar in quality to the SL35 APO Lens but not the price of Noctilux. 
 
I would say that in time, existing lenses will naturally be upgraded but How do you make already perfect lenses better ?

[farnz]

On 2/12/2020 at 1:09 PM, proenca said:

- but their lens lineup is not really what once was due to the increasing sensor tech which taxes and stresses the lens much more - while a 50 ASPH in a 18 or 24mp is lovely and glorious is just "meh" on a 42-44mp.

Step 1: Upgrade your eyes, Step 2: upgrade your brain because these are the tools that you use to view the pictures and they are far more prone to malfunction or degradation than either a lens or a camera.  Without these 'upgrades' you're unlikely to see the difference in either's resolution since your brain will be using a number of filter such as selective preference, expectation, ownership bias, previous opinion etc to distort what it shows to you. 😀

Pete.

Edited February 15, 2020 by farnz

[hydet]

The reality is that a better camera will make your older lenses look better, not the other way around.  

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[otto.f]

33 minutes ago, hydet said:

The reality is that a better camera will make your older lenses look better, not the other way around.  

Exactly