Auction Find

[willeica]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

3 hours ago, harryzet said:

so an american gi stole it? or traded it in for 50 lucky strikes?

We need to be careful in speculating about what happened. The only thing we know at this stage is that the camera did end up in the US after WWII. It is unlikely that the person who owned it previously knew anything about its value nor did the auctioneer who sold it in the US.  The current owner knew nothing about its value until I saw the serial number posted here and contacted Jim Lager about it. I also contacted Lars and the result is that the item is going up for auction with the description above. This is a true once in a generation find. People have collected Leica cameras for years and have found nothing like this. As far as I know, the current owner had never bought a Leica before and knew very little about them. 

William 

 

[jerzy]

I was working on IIId article since summer last year and in January 2020 sent it to Vidom publisher (Lars). Article was published in June this year (Vidom 119). As well the table with SNs and production years shown  in #13 is part of this article, poeple who sent me the photos of their IIId received a copy of article from me upfront.
It is clear that 360001 did not leave the factory in a usual way, it is not marked in delivery records. But there is no doubt, based on features and details, that it is genuine

[Tony A.]

On 8/26/2020 at 9:12 AM, jpattison said:

Tony, did you manage to contact the seller ?

I did. As it turns out, the lady who I bought the camera from had the camera in her own collection for several years. She couldn't remember exactly where she picked it up but was pretty sure she found it in an abandoned self storage unit, which she bought the entire contents of, or possibly an estate auction. She thought the camera might be valuable but had done little to no research into it. 

I purchased the camera on a Saturday evening and spent most of the day Sunday scouring the internet trying to find any information I could. That search led me to this forum and where we are today. 

https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/88394217_leica-iiid-no-1

Edited October 8, 2020 by Tony A.

[PG Black nickel]

good luck with your sale....but already you have refunded your purchase! This kind of thing happens only once in a lifetime. It's a bit like finding a Picasso in an attic!

[pedaes]

On 10/8/2020 at 8:23 PM, PG Black nickel said:

with your sale

€40,000 less sellers premium

[luigi bertolotti]

Defintely WOW !  And what a battle in the room .. 25 bids around !

 

Edited October 10, 2020 by luigi bertolotti

[willeica]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Even more than I expected when I referred the seller to Lars- I was thinking maybe 25-30K. The bidding was a bit slow at first, but then it took off. This is, as far as I know, the highest price, ever paid for a IIId. The auction took off slowly, but all the right items sold for the high prices. The highest was for a Nikon L with LTM mount from 1947/48 which sold for €320,000. I am sure that Luigi will have noted the sale of a Boniforti and Ballerio Perseo for €36,000 and a Fratelli Borletti Fiumea prototype for €55,000. Leica copies are really taking off in price, particularly the rare Italian models.

William 

[Anbaric]

I guess that 360002 (also thought to be the 'first' IIId at the time) selling for 31,200 Euros wasn't a fluke!

Does anyone know if 360000 ever existed and what model it might be? I'm going to check my attic just in case...

[willeica]

16 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

I guess that 360002 (also thought to be the 'first' IIId at the time) selling for 31,200 Euros wasn't a fluke!

Does anyone know if 360000 ever existed and what model it might be? I'm going to check my attic just in case...

According to Jim Lager 360002 had been regarded as the first to be issued. When 360001 turned up he looked again and said that 360001 did exist but it was never known to have left the factory. Lars had 360001 fully checked out. If both Lager and Lars are satisfied that this was the first IIId so should we, unless 360000 turns up!

William

PS I am talking only about IIIds here. If 360000 did exist it probably would not be another model.

Edited October 10, 2020 by willeica

[pedaes]

40 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

thought to be the 'first' IIId at the time) selling for 31,200 Euros wasn't a fluke!

Wonder what it is worth now? Perhaps the owner will be pretty miffed that the 'thought to be...' was proved not to be.

Perhaps they bought it to have first and second - or maybe second and third. Dodgy old business.

[willeica]

11 hours ago, pedaes said:

Wonder what it is worth now? Perhaps the owner will be pretty miffed that the 'thought to be...' was proved not to be.

Perhaps they bought it to have first and second - or maybe second and third. Dodgy old business.

Keith, I presume that you know that the ‘first’ was a genuine find which confounded experts  like Jim Lager and Lars Netopil. I agree that this kind of thing might seem like a ‘dodgy old business’ to those who are not collectors, but a collector market which is motivated by such factors does exist. Watching an auction and how some items move and others don’t move is an eye opener. It would be interesting to talk to such collectors afterwards and ask them about their motivations. I bought a couple of items at the auction yesterday, both for modest 3 figure sums. One was a Leica accessory to go with something I already had and the other was for a collection of cameras with Leitz Compur lenses which I am building up. My motivations were somewhat different to those of the people who bought the big items and were far removed from any ‘dodgy old business’. 
 

William

[pedaes]

5 hours ago, willeica said:

, I presume that you know

I was mostly joking, but as no one was expecting this body to appear, who is to say 360000 will not also.

Like you, interested since first posted here as it is a dream find, and this is I quess  the end of the story for now. It was correct to have it sold here or in the upcoming Tamarkin or Leitz Auctions. Buyers Premium and possible duties make it an expensive piece.

Edited October 11, 2020 by pedaes

[willeica]

2 hours ago, pedaes said:

I was mostly joking, but as no one was expecting this body to appear, who is to say 360000 will not also.

Like you, interested since first posted here as it is a dream find, and this is I quess  the end of the story for now. It was correct to have it sold here or in the upcoming Tamarkin or Leitz Auctions. Buyers Premium and possible duties make it an expensive piece.

You are right, Keith. The 'add ons' are quite something even for the more modest items and need to be factored in. However, nobody should ever try to sell (or indeed buy) a camera like the IIId on eBay. The additional expertise and access to wealthy buyers provided by the auction system is invaluable in fetching higher prices for sellers. There is also much more security on the payment side. Auctions like Wetzlar, Tamarkin and Leitz and others all serve a purpose. Otherwise they would not exist.

William

[tranquilo67]

On 10/11/2020 at 9:43 AM, willeica said:

Keith, I presume that you know that the ‘first’ was a genuine find which confounded experts  like Jim Lager and Lars Netopil. I agree that this kind of thing might seem like a ‘dodgy old business’ to those who are not collectors, but a collector market which is motivated by such factors does exist. Watching an auction and how some items move and others don’t move is an eye opener. It would be interesting to talk to such collectors afterwards and ask them about their motivations. I bought a couple of items at the auction yesterday, both for modest 3 figure sums. One was a Leica accessory to go with something I already had and the other was for a collection of cameras with Leitz Compur lenses which I am building up. My motivations were somewhat different to those of the people who bought the big items and were far removed from any ‘dodgy old business’. 
 

William

Hi William,

May be this will sound strange but I perfectly understand the high figure for the first IIId. Some time ago I heard that the collectors value "the first, the last and the rare". And this is the first of a rare.

It's out of my budget for cameras but, once more, I perfectly understand to be willing to pay such price for such piece.

Best wishes,

Augusto

[willeica]

4 hours ago, tranquilo67 said:

Some time ago I heard that the collectors value "the first, the last and the rare". And this is the first of a rare.

You put it perfectly, Augusto. Sometimes people who are not collectors get upset with this type of thinking. I'm not sure why. Maybe it is a 'waste not, want not' mentality. They are, of course, as entitled to their views as are the collectors. Not all collectors are vastly wealthy and can afford 'first, last and rare'. Many are happy with more modest collecting goals and themes. In my case my collecting themes would include IAs, IIDs, Summars, Sharkskin models and Leitz Compur lenses in non Leitz cameras. To try to collect all aspects of Leica would require a lot more wealth and a lot more space than most people have.

 

William

[derleicaman]

Quite a nice return for a less than $10 investment! 🙂

[Tony A.]

Yes, I made a small profit...😉😄

[Tony A.]

On 10/11/2020 at 9:03 AM, pedaes said:

 It was correct to have it sold here or in the upcoming Tamarkin or Leitz Auctions.

I found and attempted to contact Tamarkin before I found this forum. I sent them a message with the same pictures that I posted here and got back a sort of canned response from one of his employees. She told me if I was in the Chicago area, I could bring the camera by their shop and they would take a look at it. As I am almost 900 miles from Chicago, I just let that one drop.

Leitz sent me a message here but I already had the ball rolling with Lars, so I stayed with him.

[willeica]

11 hours ago, derleicaman said:

Quite a nice return for a less than $10 investment! 🙂

The advice Tony got here was 'priceless'. I'm sure that my good friend Dan will regret not getting this one, but Lars was the right person in the right place to deal with this. The important thing is not only finding the right seller, but also getting the right buyers to bid. That is where the real benefit of using an auction house lies.

William

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear