dubois pierre Posted February 12, 2020 Share #41 Posted February 12, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) A few years ago I bought a curious Leica 3c wartime with a time selector. The seller had assured me that the selector worked and that the camera had been overhauled. I did an exchange with a Mooly motor from my collection,when i received the device the selector with delay did not work i made it appraised and it turned out that it was a montage of Leica 3f and a Leica 3c. So a scam and I lost a lot of money with this exchange. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306346-auction-find/?do=findComment&comment=3911627'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 12, 2020 Posted February 12, 2020 Hi dubois pierre, Take a look here Auction Find. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
marekbjj Posted February 12, 2020 Share #42 Posted February 12, 2020 That's awesome! I just found my Kriegsmarine Leica Friday. I reached out to Jim and Lars as well. It sounds like Jim and Lars have had an exciting week! Never the less, your camera is really cool!! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 12, 2020 Share #43 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) There are two entries about No. 360001 in the "Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen" ("Diary of changements for the Leica") which was written during the production process from 1928 until 1945. On p.19 under entry no. 79b. it says (my translation - I quote from the diary's edition by the German Leica Historica e.V in "Vidom Spezial 10/2010") "Production of a new camera model 3C and D. First delivery September 1939. Further etails on p. 20." On p. 20 the following description is given under the header: "Die casting camera 42215 model 3 c. Changements and novelties for the die casting camera. September 1939." Under entry 80: "Early September 1939. From 360 001 Production of a new die casting camera model 3 C and D of light metal, body housing and cap of brass. Shutter with new rubber cloth of German production. Housing for shutter is connected to the body for the prism which gives more stability." Under entry 80a there is a further description of the new disk for counting exposures. But then under entry 84 (p 20, 21):"July 1940, model IIId; the new die casting camera is also delivered with selftimer. Nos. 367001-367500 have already been delivered with selftimer. The following nos. have been delivered in advance: 360001-360020, 360040-360083, 360106-360134. All models IIId with selftimer Edited February 12, 2020 by UliWer 2 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 12, 2020 Share #44 Posted February 12, 2020 Am 11.2.2020 um 12:46 schrieb willeica: The number written inside the camera looks to my poor eyesight like E 22 5 49, which may have been a date put on by a service person either in Germany or the US. From the entry in the "Diary" I think it was the interior number given by Leitz. The diary mentions the number "42215" for the IIIc and the IIId models. I have no proof though I am rather sure that they did not give the same numbers for both models, but made a destinction. So what we read as "E 225 49" (not sure whether we read it properly) may be a special interior number for the IIId or just for this first model of a IIId. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted February 12, 2020 Share #45 Posted February 12, 2020 43 minutes ago, UliWer said: The diary mentions the number "42215" The provenance of this camera is rising! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 12, 2020 Share #46 Posted February 12, 2020 Please do not mix up this interior number "42215" for the new model IIIc which is only mentioned in the diary with a serial number! Btw: It is funny that they used interior numbers at Leitz during a time when their products were listed with five letter words. Nowadays when all products are listed with numbers they use interior names for products which are under development. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 12, 2020 Share #47 Posted February 12, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 6 hours ago, dubois pierre said: I see on a book by D Rogliatti that a limited IIId series starts at number 360000 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! My English language version of the IIId entry in Rogliatti's book reads " Only a few cameras of this type were made in the very first run of IIIc in the 360,000 series". In case anyone gets misled about this, Rogliatti had emphasised " The Model IIId was essentially a model IIIc with delayed action timer". In other words, he perceived correctly that the IIId was a IIIc variant. This is borne out by the contents of the diary quoted by Uliwer That diary refers to 360001 being "delivered in advance'', but Jim Lager says that he could not find written delivery records for that camera. I suspect that the use of 'delivered' here means 'produced'. Perhaps Uliwer could confirm whether the wording could be translated thus? As for the interior number, only a full strip down would get to the bottom of this. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
harryzet Posted February 12, 2020 Share #48 Posted February 12, 2020 delivered means it was produced and then given to the "customer", whoever that was Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share #49 Posted February 12, 2020 So, I am planning to get the ball rolling by sending the camera to DAG (simply as a matter of convenience as he is in the states) and I am actually in the process of typing up an email to him now. I know I/we definitely want an inspection for internal numbers but it has been mentioned that the original "patina" might be more desirable to some. The question is: should it get a thorough CLA and restore full function or leave it pretty much as is with maybe a light CLA? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 12, 2020 Share #50 Posted February 12, 2020 The collector v user situation needs to be understood. If you are going to keep this, have it serviced to your own preferences. If you are going to sell it through an auction house, don’t have it serviced. At this level of value working condition will not add much proportionately to the value. A good photo auction house would have it serviced anyway. William 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anbaric Posted February 12, 2020 Share #51 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) Others here will have more insight into how serious collectors regard the original condition of the camera, but personally (if I were considering selling it) I would have it authenticated and then consult with a specialist dealer or auction house like WestLicht before having anything else done to it. I also wouldn't consign it to a courier without substantial insurance (though it's a little difficult to say how substantial until the camera has actually been valued). Edit: What William said! Edited February 12, 2020 by Anbaric 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 12, 2020 Share #52 Posted February 12, 2020 16 minutes ago, Anbaric said: Others here will have more insight into how serious collectors regard the original condition of the camera, but personally (if I were considering selling it) I would have it authenticated and then consult with a specialist dealer or auction house like WestLicht before having anything else done to it. I also wouldn't consign it to a courier without substantial insurance (though it's a little difficult to say how substantial until the camera has actually been valued). Edit: What William said! Exactly my thinking. The auction house should insure such an item and arrange for a courier as it has been already given the 'initial nod' by the world's two leading experts on vintage Leicas. The auction house would also have the item authenticated by an expert. All of the above goes away if you are just going to have it as a user item, except for the need to have very good insurance for it yourself. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 12, 2020 Author Share #53 Posted February 12, 2020 Any “ballpark” ideas on how much insurance coverage would be in order and where to get insurance on such an item? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 12, 2020 Share #54 Posted February 12, 2020 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Tony A. said: Any “ballpark” ideas on how much insurance coverage would be in order and where to get insurance on such an item? Search online for camera insurance or check with a local broker, but the first thing they will ask is " how much is the camera worth?". We have a very justified policy here of not giving valuations. You can look also at the Collectiblend link which somebody provided earlier. An auctioneer might be prepared to give a valuation figure or range, subject to validation of the camera. Ultimately, the only certain way of getting a valuation would be to put the item up for auction at a reputable auction house. This is not, in my opinion, an item for eBay. It should only be sold through a top level auction house. William Edited February 12, 2020 by willeica 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted February 12, 2020 Share #55 Posted February 12, 2020 I would not bother with DAG or any other repair person. I would send it straight to Lars Netopil in Wetzlar after speaking with him, including on the subject of insurance. 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 12, 2020 Share #56 Posted February 12, 2020 1 minute ago, M9reno said: I would not bother with DAG or any other repair person. I would send it straight to Lars Netopil in Wetzlar after speaking with him, including on the subject of insurance. Alfonso, you have said what I was thinking, but it would be Tony's decision. I have already given him Lars's contact details. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted February 12, 2020 Share #57 Posted February 12, 2020 oh man, and to think I was so happy with my red scale elmar that got for $5 at fleamarket. Congratulations! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 13, 2020 Share #58 Posted February 13, 2020 I feel sorry for the person who put it up for sale in the first place - let's hope he never hears of this. 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted February 13, 2020 Share #59 Posted February 13, 2020 It is quite true that we won't be doing a valuation here, but if I were the lucky owner I would keep the camera in my safe and notify my home insurance company of the situation. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 13, 2020 Share #60 Posted February 13, 2020 vor 4 Stunden schrieb willeica: That diary refers to 360001 being "delivered in advance'', but Jim Lager says that he could not find written delivery records for that camera. I suspect that the use of 'delivered' here means 'produced'. Perhaps Uliwer could confirm whether the wording could be translated thus? As for the interior number, only a full strip down would get to the bottom of this. As harryzet wrote my translation "delivered" is for "geliefert" in the original, which does certainly mean "delivered to a another person or another place". Since the diary was written in the "Leica Montage I" department of the Leitz factory it could mean that the camera only left this department and went to another department in the factory, but was not sold. Though cameras which were kept in the factory usually were marked as "Werkskamera" which this item clearly isn't. Looking again at the handwritten original in the Vidom edition of the diary I notice a mistake in my translation. In the first sentence it is "geliefert" - delivered. In the second sentence which deals with No.s 367.001-367500, it is not "geliefert" but "mit Vorlaufwerk versehen" which can be translated by "provided with selftimer". In the last sentence which mentions 360001 it is "geliefert" - delivered - again. vor 6 Stunden schrieb UliWer: "July 1940, model IIId; the new die casting camera is also delivered with selftimer. Nos. 367001-367500 have already been provided with selftimer. The following nos. have been delivered in advance: 360001-360020, 360040-360083, 360106-360134. All models IIId with selftimer When I wrote "interior" number I did not mean the engraved serial number in the camera's interior. "Interior" meaning it was a number for interior communication at Leitz to name the new model. The header of the section in the diary is "Spritzguss-Kamera 42215 Modell 3c" which may apply only to the IIIc while the IIId had a different numbered description. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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