pegelli Posted February 13, 2020 Share #81 Posted February 13, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) @Tony A., Great story that I keep following with interest and congrats on this lucky find. I'm not a collector but immensely enjoy all the technical and other details that are uncovered by the members here. I only don't understand the unfounded speculation about the camera being stolen by a gi and brought home. There's no basis for that and doesn't add anything of value to the whole story, even to the contrary imho. 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 13, 2020 Posted February 13, 2020 Hi pegelli, Take a look here Auction Find . I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
wizard Posted February 13, 2020 Share #82 Posted February 13, 2020 vor 4 Minuten schrieb pegelli: I only don't understand the unfounded speculation about the camera being stolen by a gi and brought home. There's no basis for that and doesn't add anything of value to the whole story, even to the contrary imho. Indeed, any allegation that the camera was stolen seems completely unfounded at this point (unless Tony has information pointing in that direction). Right after the war, many people in Germany were in desparate need of funds to survive, so if they still owned items of value that were of not so much value to them in that particular situation (you can't eat a Leica), they tried to sell those items to whoever would buy them. That is one possible scenario of how ownership may have changed. I am not even ruling out the possibility that some Leitz employee who had access to those cameras may have "sold" them . But it is all speculation, really, and Germany was in turmoil then, so everything is possible. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 13, 2020 Author Share #83 Posted February 13, 2020 No, I don't have any information in that regard. I should not have said it was a "likely scenario", but one of many possible scenarios. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UliWer Posted February 13, 2020 Share #84 Posted February 13, 2020 I'll try to sum up what we know so far: The camera shown by Tony with No. 360001 has all exterior features of a IIId while there is no evidence that it might be faked or changed. This assumption should be verified by an experienced person who inspects the camera itself. No. 360001 is mentioned two times in the "Tagebuch für Leica-Änderungen, Leica Montage I". The number is mentioned first in an entry for September 1939 as the beginning of the production of a new model "42215" which is described as the IIIc and IIId. It is mentioned next in an entry for July 1940 which sums up the production of IIId models with selftimer so far. This twofold mentioning of No. 360001 leaves no doubt that the camera with No. 360001 was produced in regular production - as the very first - and was no pre-production prototype. The entry clearly says that No. 360001 was already delivered in advance ("...bereits vorab geliefert.") together with other cameras with low numbers from the 3600xx serial. Since the author of the diary makes a distinction between "bereits vorab geliefert" for No.360001 et.al and "mit Vorlaufwerk versehen" for Nos. 367001-367500 it is evident that the camera did not stay in the department "Montage I" of the Leitz factory, which is the diary's topic. Whether it was only delivered to another department or to a customer is an open question, which should be checked by research in the Leitz delivery register. Without this research all assumptions about the camera's further "fate" remain unbased. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeitz Posted February 13, 2020 Share #85 Posted February 13, 2020 Just to keep facts correct, "At least the US Army didn't pack up the whole factory and ship it back to the States like the Russians did with the Zeiss works!" is not an accurate statement. The Zeiss Ikon factory in Dresden was totally destroyed by US & UK fire bombing in February 1945. As war reparations the Soviets had Zeiss rebuild the tooling for the Contax camera; the tooling was set up Jena to make sure it worked. (Zeiss collectors covet the Jena-made Contax cameras.) The tooling was dissembled and moved to Kiev, Ukraine, along with Zeiss staff who were essentially held captive in Kiev for a number of years. The factory never went to Russia. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted February 13, 2020 Share #86 Posted February 13, 2020 About the possible mysterious origin of these German cameras From: "Bringing Back Memories: GIs, Souvenir Hunting, and Looting in Germany, 1945 " Seth A. Givens June 2010 (faculty of the College of Arts and Sciences of Ohio University) Pag 47:...“We are devastation,” wrote Sergeant Raymond Gantter in a letter home on 23 April 1945. “Where we have passed, little remains – no cameras, no pistols, no watches, very little jewelry, and damn few virgins. We leave behind us a spoor of broken dishes, emptied fruit jars, and plundered, dirty houses. And our general attitude (which I’m inclined to share) is: So you wanted total war? You believed in it, boasted of it? Well, this is it!” (Gantter, Roll Me Over, p. 343). ...pag.49: "While the American Army advanced into the heart of Germany in March and April, swallowing up quaint villages and large metropolitan areas alike, units were ordered to conduct house-to-house searches for any weapons, equipment, radios, cameras, or harbored German soldiers... pag.61:"... “Don't ever let anybody ever tell you that we didn't loot. The American Army were great looters,” veteran Alexander Gordeuk affirmed. What is more, “We looted what you could turn into cash and carry easy. We really did, there was no stopping it.” Gordeuk’s statement strikes to the core of one of the motivation for troops to steal civilian possessions. While taking clothing and food was stealing because of necessity, the GIs’ proclivity to confiscate cameras, watches, and jewelry was nothing of the sort. Soldiers needed objects outside of what the Army had issued them, and as a consequence cameras became a big ticket item. As Harry van Zandt reported, “Everybody was most interested in getting a good German Leica camera.” The German Leica was world-renowned, and one of the most expensive on the market, making it a must-have for soldiers. “I helped myself to a nice Leica camera and one other camera,” Lloyd Kalugin remembered. “That's how I took the pictures of the concentration camp. We called it liberated.” ... Most of Jena’s importance was due to the presence of the Carl Zeiss optical systems factory, and the GIs were well aware of the company’s reputation. “They used to make very good cameras,” Kalugin remembered, “and we knew that. Boy, we were rubbing our hands, ‘Oh, we're gonna get our hands on these nice cameras,’ right. We get into the town, there were two MPs right in front of the factory. To this day, we don't know how they got there before we did.” GIs, then, desired cameras just as they did Lugers. The consummate U.S. soldier who Germans saw by spring 1945 had a camera around his neck and a Luger strapped to his hip. Watches, too, were high on the list of items to take from civilians. A common joke spread throughout Germany that USA was actually an acronym for Uhren stehlens auch, “They steal watches, too.” By the time the U.S. and Red Armies began to meet up across Germany, the market for watches grew from being self-contained within the U.S. Army to extending into selling timepieces to Soviet soldiers. ...GIs who came in contact with the Soviets found that they could sell souvenirs quite easily and for a handsome profit. As veteran Alexander Phillips put it, “They came with the money and we came with the merchandise.”... ...just to name a few bold adventures... 1 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted February 13, 2020 Share #87 Posted February 13, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) 6 minutes ago, zeitz said: Just to keep facts correct, "At least the US Army didn't pack up the whole factory and ship it back to the States like the Russians did with the Zeiss works!" is not an accurate statement. The Zeiss Ikon factory in Dresden was totally destroyed by US & UK fire bombing in February 1945. As war reparations the Soviets had Zeiss rebuild the tooling for the Contax camera; the tooling was set up Jena to make sure it worked. (Zeiss collectors covet the Jena-made Contax cameras.) The tooling was dissembled and moved to Kiev, Ukraine, along with Zeiss staff who were essentially held captive in Kiev for a number of years. The factory never went to Russia. Correct, I should have said Soviet Union, which Ukraine was part of. A lot of the box cars from Zeiss Jena never made it to Kiev, either. Supposedly sitting rotting away on a railroad siding somewhere along the way. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted February 13, 2020 Share #88 Posted February 13, 2020 Wait for expertise and see to understand, many things are still misunderstood today such as the assembly of the pyramids. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 13, 2020 Share #89 Posted February 13, 2020 2 hours ago, UliWer said: This twofold mentioning of No. 360001 leaves no doubt that the camera with No. 360001 was produced in regular production - as the very first - and was no pre-production prototype. If this is true, this is still the lowest SN for an existing IIId. Jim Lager told me that he could not find any delivery record for this camera, so it would be a good assumption that this camera remained in the factory and did not venture outside until it went to the US after WWII. The story about a GI is all hearsay, but this is a camera for which there is no sale record either in Germany or the US, so the story of a returning GI is a possibility as many of them brought cameras of various kinds back to the US in the immediate post-war period. None of this affects the authenticity of the camera which needs to be examined by someone with the relevant expertise. William 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
derleicaman Posted February 13, 2020 Share #90 Posted February 13, 2020 17 minutes ago, willeica said: If this is true, this is still the lowest SN for an existing IIId. Jim Lager told me that he could not find any delivery record for this camera, so it would be a good assumption that this camera remained in the factory and did not venture outside until it went to the US after WWII. The story about a GI is all hearsay, but this is a camera for which there is no sale record either in Germany or the US, so the story of a returning GI is a possibility as many of them brought cameras of various kinds back to the US in the immediate post-war period. None of this affects the authenticity of the camera which needs to be examined by someone with the relevant expertise. William Entirely possible that this camera walked out the door with an employee who perhaps bartered it for much needed food or medicine. Germany was devastated after the war, and as someone noted here, you can't eat a camera! Hopefully, we will never know such desperation. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 13, 2020 Share #91 Posted February 13, 2020 1 minute ago, derleicaman said: Entirely possible that this camera walked out the door with an employee who perhaps bartered it for much needed food or medicine. Germany was devastated after the war, and as someone noted here, you can't eat a camera! Hopefully, we will never know such desperation. Absolutely possible, Bill. I have heard of Leicas being bartered for a few packets of cigarettes or even chocolate bars. William 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaques Posted February 13, 2020 Share #92 Posted February 13, 2020 My grandfather was one of the first allied soldiers in Bergen Belsen. He photographed the camp. Horrendous stuff. He bought back a beautiful Rolleiflex TLR that he swapped for a tin of coffee. One could imagine an infinite number of scenarios as to how that camera left the Leitz factory- a swap, a bribe, a gift- or War Booty, or?. It could well be that the answer is forever lost in the mists of time... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 15, 2020 Author Share #93 Posted February 15, 2020 Packed up and ready for a trip back to Germany. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 4 Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306346-auction-find/?do=findComment&comment=3913451'>More sharing options...
pedaes Posted February 15, 2020 Share #94 Posted February 15, 2020 9 minutes ago, Tony A. said: Packed up and ready for a trip back to Germany. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Good luck and enjoy the trip! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 15, 2020 Author Share #95 Posted February 15, 2020 Oh, just the camera is going, unfortunately. 😢 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pedaes Posted February 15, 2020 Share #96 Posted February 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Tony A. said: Oh, just the camera is going, unfortunately. 😢 OK - sensible! Keep us posted. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M9reno Posted February 15, 2020 Share #97 Posted February 15, 2020 I don’t think an old leather camera case has ever traveled In such comfort and security. Godspeed, IIId! 1 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooterguy Posted February 21, 2020 Share #98 Posted February 21, 2020 Oh my. This reads like on heckuva novel. I'm waiting for the next chapter to appear... 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 21, 2020 Author Share #99 Posted February 21, 2020 (edited) The camera is now safely in the hands of Lars Netopil. Here is a snippet from an email I just received from him"Hello Tony, the shipment was released by german customs and I have picked it up personally this morning. After a very careful examination I can give you a confirmation of what I already thought from your pictures: This is a bonafide Leica IIId with all proper features in all original condition. The delayed action mechanism on the IIId Leica was technically different from that of the later IIIf models. In some cases it happened, that a IIId selftimer went broken and as there were no spareparts of this available after, a IIIf-type selftimer was set into a IIId. I can already see in the non-dismantled status, that here we still have the original IIId selftimer. There is also no reason to doubt, that this is camera number 360.001. The chrome plating of the topplate looks absolutely vintage, as well as the engravings." Edited February 21, 2020 by Tony A. 5 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted February 21, 2020 Share #100 Posted February 21, 2020 E xcellent i am happy for you😃 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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