Tony A. Posted February 10, 2020 Share #1 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) First off, I am completely new to vintage cameras so please forgive my ignorance. I was at an estate auction of sorts this past weekend and before the auction started I was walking around looking at the items. I came across this and thought to myself "Wow, that's a really nice old camera." I was only vaguely familiar with Leica but knew they were/are "higher end" cameras. I was really surprised when it came up on the block and no one was bidding on it, so I did. It is a little rough, but I think I may have gotten a really good deal..or I got a fake. The further down this rabbit hole I go, the more fun it gets. I am currently searching for a good place in the US (hopefully) to send it for a good CLA. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited February 10, 2020 by Tony A. corrections 5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306346-auction-find/?do=findComment&comment=3910464'>More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted February 10, 2020 Posted February 10, 2020 Hi Tony A., Take a look here Auction Find. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
derleicaman Posted February 10, 2020 Share #2 Posted February 10, 2020 Its not a fake. It was originally a Leica IIIa and had a self-timer added at some point. Nice, neat job so likely done at the factory. This may have been a war-time camera brought home to the States. I am looking into additional info and will let you know. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share #3 Posted February 10, 2020 Thank you! I appreciate any help I can get. I had found conflicting information on the model in my own limited searching. Based on the serial number, one site had it listed as an IIIa, as you said, another site had it as an IIId. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan mcfall Posted February 10, 2020 Share #4 Posted February 10, 2020 Factory record show it as a model IIIc. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 10, 2020 Share #5 Posted February 10, 2020 40 minutes ago, derleicaman said: Its not a fake. It was originally a Leica IIIa and had a self-timer added at some point. Nice, neat job so likely done at the factory. This may have been a war-time camera brought home to the States. I am looking into additional info and will let you know. The Bluebook has this as a IIIa, but the top plate is that of a IIIc. It seems to have had a self timer. Now the Bluebook lists the first IIId as 360002. I would like to hear from Jerzy on this as he has done some analysis on IIIds. For the benefit of the OP, the IIId is a rare (and, therefore, expensive) variant which is effectively a IIIc with a self timer. This is worth looking into. Perhaps, Bill (derleicaman) you could have a word with Jim Lager? William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabears Posted February 10, 2020 Share #6 Posted February 10, 2020 Mega find! You own the first Leica IIID! I wait for others (and better ) photos! Compliments!😍 1 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 10, 2020 Author Share #7 Posted February 10, 2020 Advertisement (gone after registration) I have a few other photos on my phone but, due to the size, the forum would only let me upload 2. Here are a couple more. Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306346-auction-find/?do=findComment&comment=3910546'>More sharing options...
M9reno Posted February 10, 2020 Share #8 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) Indeed. Looks like the first IIId. Prices: https://collectiblend.com/Cameras/Leitz/Leica-IIId.html Edited February 10, 2020 by M9reno 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anbaric Posted February 10, 2020 Share #9 Posted February 10, 2020 (edited) The first IIId if genuine. Seems too good to be true! It's definitely not a IIIa. Everything looks like a wartime IIIc, except for the timer and the serial number, both of which would make it a IIId instead (essentially the self timer variant of the wartime IIIc). Here's an authenticated IIId on sale in London at the moment: https://www.reddotcameras.co.uk/screw-bodies/12516-leica-iiid-body.html The serial number engraving looks a bit odd to me, but then so does the engraving on 360050 above. One for the real experts to look at. I imagine being the first in the serial number range of a very rare model would make it extremely attractive to collectors... Edit: Incidentally, whatever else it is, it's a Leica. The question of authenticity is whether someone has concocted it from IIIc and IIIf parts and added a fake engraving, or whether it's exactly as it seems to be. Edit 2: A couple of details that look good: 6 rather than 4 concentric circles on the self timer knob, no lock on the slow-speed dial: https://www.photo.net/discuss/threads/leica-111d-111c-self-timer-still-researching.26456/ 360002 apparently went for 31,200 Euros at auction: http://wlpa.auction2000.se/auk/w.Object?inC=WLPA&inA=20180329_1504&inO=46 Edited February 10, 2020 by Anbaric 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 11, 2020 Share #10 Posted February 11, 2020 From Jim Lager tonight. Note his exhortations about further examinations, particularly re the matching internal number and the self timer. That is why I mentioned Jerzy earlier. " William, Yes. The written delivery records have no entry for this number. The next camera 360002 went internally to the Konstruktion Department undoubtedly for evaluation. Specifically written next to 360001 is: mit selbst ausloser IIId. This is the self timer. I suspect this camera was brought home by a returning GI post late 1945. I was alerted to 360002 years ago. 360001 will bring a substantial figure . It should be opened by an expert technician to see if the internal chassis number matches the top cover number. As this was ( in my opinion) used inside the factory incredibly they may not have bothered to engrave an internal number. The camera must be evaluated . It must be checked to confirm the self timer is the early style ( not the one in the IIIf). A collector with lots of money is going to get this artifact" As indicated above, this needs further checking. William 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anbaric Posted February 11, 2020 Share #11 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) To my inexpert eye that does indeed look like the early style self timer - 6 concentric circles on the knob, while the IIIf and IIIg have 4. Paired with a post-war lens by serial number, but of course that doesn't mean anything, especially if the camera was never really delivered in the normal way. Edited February 11, 2020 by Anbaric 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted February 11, 2020 Share #12 Posted February 11, 2020 Leica always engraved SN under the top cover, in case of Betriebskameras the were marked as well accordingly on the internal frame. From outside everything looks good, as well "N" in SN engraving is of the style correct for the time. Final prove needfs camera to be disassembled, but what would help now is the photo of film chamber with take up spool taken off 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pecole Posted February 11, 2020 Share #13 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) "My" Leica IIId (code LOOTP), in my former Fontenelle collection, had serial 360069 and was authentified by Leitz as manufectured in 1942. The company provided this extract of their production records and precised that early models had black shutter blinds and no slow speed dial lock. Note that 360001 is not mentioned, but it not means anything - even not that it was the first - since the 360029 was produced in 1939 and the 360010 in 1947! The attribution of serials does definitely not follow a logical order. My guess - it is purely a guess - is that the serial 360001 is probably a late production (1947 or even later?). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited February 11, 2020 by Pecole Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306346-auction-find/?do=findComment&comment=3910735'>More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 11, 2020 Share #14 Posted February 11, 2020 4 minutes ago, Pecole said: My guess - it is purely a guess - is that the serial 360001 is probably a late production (1947 or even later?). While I agree about the sequence of Leica SNs, this could equally have been a 'prototype' or 'works camera' picked up from the factory and brought to the US by a returning GI , as suggested by Jim Lager. Wetzlar seems to have been in the US zone. The comment on the register, about the self timer and seen by Jim Lager, could have been a reference to the fact that this was a IIIc with a self timer or, indeed, that this was one of the first Leicas with a self timer, ie the first IIId. As suggested by Jim Lager and Jerzy, this camera needs to be stripped down and examined. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share #15 Posted February 11, 2020 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306346-auction-find/?do=findComment&comment=3910743'>More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share #16 Posted February 11, 2020 Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/306346-auction-find/?do=findComment&comment=3910745'>More sharing options...
Pecole Posted February 11, 2020 Share #17 Posted February 11, 2020 (edited) 25 minutes ago, Pecole said: "My" Leica IIId (code LOOTP), in my former Fontenelle collection, had serial 360069 and was authentified by Leitz as manufectured in 1942. The company provided this extract of their production records and precised that early models had black shutter blinds and no slow speed dial lock. Note that 360001 is not mentioned, but it not means anything - even not that it was the first - since the 360029 was produced in 1939 and the 360010 in 1947! The attribution of serials does definitely not follow a logical order. My guess - it is purely a guess - is that the serial 360001 is probably a late production (1947 or even later?). Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Is it an effect of age? I forgot to mention that I also had for some time a Leica IIId nº367308 (1944) with a red blind. Following van Hasbroeck, it was part of a batch (nº 367305-367324) delivered to the Nippon naval attaché in Berlin in 1944. Here are photos. Edited February 11, 2020 by Pecole 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony A. Posted February 11, 2020 Author Share #18 Posted February 11, 2020 So, who would be the definitive authority to send it to? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted February 11, 2020 Share #19 Posted February 11, 2020 You should await Jerzy’s comments on the photos of the interior of the camera. William 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tranquilo67 Posted February 11, 2020 Share #20 Posted February 11, 2020 Hi, To my eye it looks authentic. Of course the ultimate confirmation should come from looking inside (internal number as well as a proper self timer mechanism and other details). My other advice would be not to send to a good technician for a CLA. In my opinion, you should send to someone experienced to get it properly serviced and restored. To keep original components could potentially impact on its value. My personal recommendation for it would be Jerzy (active in this forum). He can assess you what to keep, what to restore etc. as well as have all the internals documented and by the way, this would not be his first IIId to service. Last but not least, the fact of finding it in an state sale probably with an extremely low value, from my perspective, qualifies it for authentic (there is no interest in anyone to fake and sale for a huge amount of money). I know this is an strange theory Congratulations!! Augusto 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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