M10M Post Processing

[dkmoore]

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11 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

Yes, I agree and am familiar with LR, which I use all the time. I process images individually. However, I've tried a couple of M10M files that Chaemono provided here. What I found is that it's easy to increase the contrast of the flat OOC file, but my feeling is that, yes, you have to make large moves in the sliders, or contrast curve, to get to a "normal contrast" image, as stated above; but the scope for going beyond that into various types of high contrast looks, or low key/high key looks, seems somewhat limited  — and this is just an impression: an impression that you can't go into as wide a range of looks as you can with the M10. Maybe because with the M10 you can also use the color slides as virtual filters. 

So I'm wondering about two things: first, is my impression wrong and,  second, will the scope for different looks change when LR supports the M10M? On the latter, if I understand correctly what you say, the answer is no.
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You get more significant and instant tonal and contrast changes using the tone curve in LR. 

the sliders also behave differently and can have smaller affects on some images depending on the image itself. Some images little adjustments make big changes quick. The images you are referencing from Chaemono are indeed very flat, even with the yellow filter.  Go back into LR and mess around with the curve box. A quick trick that I learned from AceVentura (I think that is his handle without digging around) is to make a candy cane shape (or a J) in the curves. See if that helps. I think you will see the image pop with contrast.

 

Also, If you take a shot in beautiful light (sunrise or sunset) the image will be more dynamic and will require very little slider adjustment. These files are already less flat because you are using the light to craft the image. 
 

You will have zero issue at all creating very high contrast images in software with the M10M. You can also underexpose and burn the areas of interest. Lots of different ways to go about it. 
 

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[burningheart]

On 2/9/2020 at 8:47 AM, Likaleica said:

I've read several comments in different threads stating that, compared to M9M or M246 images, the M10M files look flatter or have less DR or blow the highlights easily or are softer or are just plain boring.

That's all true, but I don't think it's the camera/sensor.  Processing these files is much different than earlier Monochrom versions.  There is just so much data to work with that I don't think many people have really mastered a workflow yet.  I know I haven't.

I at times I wonder if Leica has taken a page from videographers. I know video and Leica by some are not to be spoken of together. From the video perspective it is known that videographers prefer to work with flat, dull, boring footage and then do all the work in post to make it look as they imagine it. 

Could it be as Leica was designing the M10M that they decided to take this approach to allow the photographers more latitude to process the image to their liking in post? On the other side of the coin it could be that once Capture One and LR have native support we will start to see the raw images in a different light.

No matter I am really enjoying this camera just need to find more time to go out and shoot and work on post processing techniques.

[Jager]

With each iteration of the Monochrom there have been numerous observations of the "flat files."  The first, original Monochrom, in particular, came in for considerable criticism during its early days.

Having such a "flat file" that incorporates all the tonality in a scene is usually very desirable, of course.  And that quality goes way back, to the time of film.  But it does require mindful post-processing.  I suppose the advent of ubiquitous smartphones with their OOC JPEG's has people in mind that that's how cameras are supposed to be.

 

[hydet]

19 hours ago, dkmoore said:

 ...Go back into LR and mess around with the curve box. A quick trick that I learned from AceVentura (I think that is his handle without digging around) is to make a candy cane shape (or a J) in the curves. See if that helps. I think you will see the image pop with contrast...

 

 

Could you elaborate on this?  I'm having a little difficulty visualizing it.  

[Likaleica]

2 hours ago, hydet said:

Could you elaborate on this?  I'm having a little difficulty visualizing it.  

Think S curve.  You can make infinite corrections affecting specific luminosities using this method.

[David_English]

On 2/10/2020 at 12:34 AM, Nowhereman said:

will the scope for different looks change when LR supports the M10M?
 

The February update includes Camera Raw support for the M10 Monochrom: https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html.

It's supposed to be available today.

Edited February 11, 2020 by David_English

[dkmoore]

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2 hours ago, hydet said:

Could you elaborate on this?  I'm having a little difficulty visualizing it.  

If you have a flat image starting out, drag the curve line so that is resembles a J. You won’t get it to look exactly like a J of course but close. Then you back off or increase areas as needed. This is for a more dramatic contrast look and I wouldn’t use it often. But, by doing this exercise you can see how important the curves are to editing images. Look for Ace Ventura’s post as he does a better job explaining and has nice MM1 examples using this technique. If an image is already high contrast this will likely not work. 
 

Another tip in case your interested and keep in mind I’m not great at editing images but sometimes I move a slider all the way to the right and then slowly drag the slider to the left until the image looks like what I wanted or achieved the aesthetic I wanted. I only do this with a few of the sliders (contrast, highlights, shadow). The other sliders I am much more careful with. 

Edited February 11, 2020 by dkmoore

[Keith (M)]

One of the best books I have for learning about 'the art and craft of monochrome photography' is 'Aspects of Expression' by Paul Gallagher (Argentum, ISBN 978-1-90253-854-9).  He uses large format b&w film but his descriptions of how to use PS curves adjustment layers and layer masking to achieve the desired result are a master class.  Highly recommended (and I should study it myself more often!).

[SrMi]

40 minutes ago, Keith (M) said:

One of the best books I have for learning about 'the art and craft of monochrome photography' is 'Aspects of Expression' by Paul Gallagher (Argentum, ISBN 978-1-90253-854-9).  He uses large format b&w film but his descriptions of how to use PS curves adjustment layers and layer masking to achieve the desired result are a master class.  Highly recommended (and I should study it myself more often!).

Thank you for that. Paul Gallagher has also a newer book "Exploring Black and White Photography" (also available as ebook). Do you know how they compare?

 

[erudolph]

I've just downloaded the Lightroom Classic 9.2 update, with support for the M10M.  It seems, after taking two test shots, to be a nice improvement, in terms of punchier images without much tweaking.  I'm looking forward to hearing the experiences, and some of the post-processing specifics, of other LR + M10M users.

[Keith (M)]

1 hour ago, erudolph said:

I've just downloaded the Lightroom Classic 9.2 update, with support for the M10M.  It seems, after taking two test shots, to be a nice improvement, in terms of punchier images without much tweaking.  I'm looking forward to hearing the experiences, and some of the post-processing specifics, of other LR + M10M users.

I'm also using the 9.2 update. What and where are you seeing about the M10M now being supported?  All I can see is that a custom tone curve is being applied when a .dng is imported.

Edited February 11, 2020 by Keith (M)

[SrMi]

6 minutes ago, Keith (M) said:

I'm also using the 9.2 update. What and where are you seeing about the M10M now being supported?  All I can see is that a custom tone curve is being applied when a .dng is imported.

https://helpx.adobe.com/camera-raw/kb/camera-raw-plug-supported-cameras.html

Also with 9.1 "Enable Profile Correction" did nothing and with 9.2 it applies appropriate correction.

[digitalfx]

funny, but yes all they did was add a custom curve...which should be left to the user. I guess thats in response to all the posts that the images are too flat, which honestly is the way we want them...not sure why this was complained about so much.

Also as mentioned the lens corrections work now.

[Jeff S]

2 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

funny, but yes all they did was add a custom curve...which should be left to the user.

 

This is partly why phone cameras are so popular.  Money doesn’t always buy easy or automatic results... M users should already know this.

Jeff

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Keith (M) said:

I'm also using the 9.2 update. What and where are you seeing about the M10M now being supported?  All I can see is that a custom tone curve is being applied when a .dng is imported.

Noise reduction is also automatically applied with 9.2 (amount depends on the ISO).

[Ken Abrahams]

I have been using my presets for MM1 and various lenses up until now. The Camera identification in LR is "Leica M" and I would hazard a guess that applies to all other M cameras. Its not an M10M specific profile in my understanding but at least when it identifies the DNG information in M10M,  it automatically selects the Leica M profile rather than not as before.

I have a unique set of adjustments in LR for sharpening/masking and highlights and then save as preset for each lens. Apart from adjusting the sharpening mask to each image  individually it is so much quicker in readiness to export to PS. .  

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Kendoo said:

I have been using my presets for MM1 and various lenses up until now. The Camera identification in LR is "Leica M" and I would hazard a guess that applies to all other M cameras. Its not an M10M specific profile in my understanding but at least when it identifies the DNG information in M10M,  it automatically selects the Leica M profile rather than not as before.

I have a unique set of adjustments in LR for sharpening/masking and highlights and then save as preset for each lens. Apart from adjusting the sharpening mask to each image  individually it is so much quicker in readiness to export to PS. .  

I have still the LR 9.1 running on another computer, so I can verify the following for M10M files.

With 9.1, "Enable Profile Corrections" is not automatically selected. You can select it manually and the make (Leica M), the lens and the profile fields are automatically populated. However, no correction is applied.

With 9.2, "Enable Profile Corrections" is automatically selected, the three fields are automatically populated to same values as with 9.1, corrections are applied.

Weird, but it works now.

[Ken Abrahams]

I see what you mean. Interesting that they have increased the sharpening detail somewhat. I usually have that set at 100 with radius at its minimum. At first I was entering the details manually which were no different to the MM1 values, Now I can make all new presets in LR for each lens. 

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[Ken Abrahams]

Screen shot of LR settings prior to transferring to PS for treatments and the image outcome. ISO 160, 90 M APO, 1/125 sec F11 exposed with  - 1.0 ev. I think the yellow filter was also attached. 

edit: sorry I meant to show the screen shot of my adjustments, looks like a LR library shot

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Edited February 13, 2020 by Kendoo

[geoffreyg]

On 2/11/2020 at 9:32 AM, dkmoore said:

If you have a flat image starting out, drag the curve line so that is resembles a J. You won’t get it to look exactly like a J of course but close. Then you back off or increase areas as needed. This is for a more dramatic contrast look and I wouldn’t use it often. But, by doing this exercise you can see how important the curves are to editing images.

I was taught to look at the tone curve at the quarter points - three places, and only then the two ends. Only move the three places (¼, ½, ¾) in the early stages, as otherwise there are too many changes to track. Move them (at the beginning) only up/down, and control the work. Maybe later something more is needed, but I've found this to be sound technique.