21mm f4 Super Angulon M vs 21mm Elmarit Pre Asph M

[ash13brook]

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I'm getting ready to buy a 21mm.

Both of these are fairly close in price. I have an M4-P,  M7, and an M(typ262).

a) Will the SA damage either the M7 or 262? Or is it just a metering thing? I probably can live with having to shoot manually only...probably. 

b) I have a 28mm Asph. Is the Elmarit bigger? Will it block the viewfinder?

Of course the SA is legendary, but I really would like the capability to use the lens on all 3 cameras "normally". Also, I thought I read that the Elmarit might display a little distortion because of the design, which I sort of like in a 21mm. But, I also don't want the viewfinder blocked, even though I'll be using an external most of the time.

Can you nudge me one way or the other, please?

 

Thanks,

Matt

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[ash13brook]

For what it's worth, I shoot in the f8 to f16 range as much as possible.

 

Thanks,

Matt

[AndreasG]

The 21 Elmarit (1980-1997 version here) is substantially bigger than the 28 ASPH, in length and diameter, compare the photos. You see the 21mm lens a little in the viewfinder (w/o sunshade), but one get used to it, since the viewfinder anyway shows less than the 21 will bring to film or sensor. The optical quality of the 21 Elmarit is great, it is for me one of the best wide lenses, however, I never compared it with the 21 SA.

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Edited February 8, 2020 by AndreasG

[shirubadanieru]

I tried the super angulon 21mm f3.4 and liked it (the f4 not so much because of its poor handling). The output was quite good and the lens also small, but a bit too heavy. It also does not work great on digital, even If you shoot in B&W it does vignette a lot. 

If you are willing to try a non-Leica lens, I also tried a few and my favorite (even more than the super angulon) was the ricoh 21mm f3.5, which is the same lens in the very rare ricoh gr21 film camera. You can check photos from that camera on flickr, and the rendering on the M should be fairly similar. The lens is small, perfect weight, rangefinder coupled to 0.7m, and renders really nicely. Plus, it’s much cheaper than the Leica options, although not by much given it’s a very rare lens. The only thing I don’t like is the ricoh 21mm viewfinder, so I just use the Leica old school 21mm viewfinder instead. I hardly see this lens online anymore, but I saw one the other day on the japan camera hunter website which might be worth checking. 

[lct]

I have no experience with the pre-asph 21/2.8 but the Super-Angulon 21/3.4 is significantly smaller and weighs almost the same as the current Super-Elmar-M 21/3.4 asph. The SA 21/3.4 has a lot of character but will cause false meter readings and strong vignetting and color shift on your M262 if it behaves like my M240 (1st pic). Don't expect to use it normally then but it is quite a sharp lens in the centre of the frame and has very little distortion. For more "normal" results i would envision the excellent Super-Elmar-M 21/3.4 asph or the very good Color-Skopar 21/3.5 (2nd pic) which has the same small size, above the flange, as the SA 21/3.4. 
(M240, f/8, 1/60s, 800 iso, SA 21/3.4, CV 21/3.5, uncoded)

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[AndreasG]

Just as a comparison see the photo I made today with the Elmarit-M 2.8/21 and the M10-D - camera and lens deliver! Location is Nezu Jinja, Tokyo, late afternoon.

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Edited February 8, 2020 by AndreasG

[lct]

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1 hour ago, AndreasG said:

Just as a comparison see the photo I made today with the Elmarit-M 2.8/21 and the M10-D - camera and lens deliver! Location is Nezu Jinja, Tokyo, late afternoon.

Interesting thank you. May i ask if you got red or cyan corners/edges with the pre-asph 21/2.8 Elmarit on your M10-D? 

[a.noctilux]

Matt,

as you use film Ms and M262, as me, I'd use happily the Elmarit-M 21mm asph. on them.

If you want something "new" (old 21mm lens with character 😉 ) Super-Angulon 4/21 is a compact even not light package for your film M (no flaw)

or M262 with some vignetting and color shift.

Those two 21mm can be used as combo : S-A on film and 21 asph. on digital.

How S-A 4/21 it is compact with it's friend MDa

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Digital use, 4/21 here on M8 (28mm field ... )

 

 

Some reading, here

 

 

[AndreasG]

vor einer Stunde schrieb lct:

May i ask if you got red or cyan corners/edges with the pre-asph 21/2.8 Elmarit on your M10-D? 

Not at all, never happened!

[AndreasG]

lct,

See here another photo of today with the Elmarit-M 21/2.8, uncropped, no post processing, there is of course some light vignetting in the corners, but no color seams at all. I really feel, my old 21 Elmarit can be used with a modern digital M10.

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[lct]

Thank you much. Makes me discover one reason to buy the M10 at last .

[adan]

On 2/7/2020 at 7:43 PM, ash13brook said:

I'm getting ready to buy a 21mm.

Both of these are fairly close in price. I have an M4-P,  M7, and an M(typ262).

a) Will the SA damage either the M7 or 262? Or is it just a metering thing? I probably can live with having to shoot manually only...probably. 

b) I have a 28mm Asph. Is the Elmarit bigger? Will it block the viewfinder?

Of course the SA is legendary, but I really would like the capability to use the lens on all 3 cameras "normally". Also, I thought I read that the Elmarit might display a little distortion because of the design, which I sort of like in a 21mm. But, I also don't want the viewfinder blocked, even though I'll be using an external most of the time.

Can you nudge me one way or the other, please?

 

Thanks,

Matt

lct's examples sum up the color problems with the Super-Angulons on digital (on film, or on a Monochrom, or with B&W conversions from the 262, none of those color problems will matter much).

The 21 pre-ASPH will not block the rangefinder patch. Focusing visibility is just fine.

it blocks the viewfinder about like this (with, and without, lens hood attached). But since the finder only shows about 56% of what a 21 will frame anyway, this is just a case of haggling over how much is missing. Using the internal finder is a stupid way to (ab)use a 21mm.

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As to distortion - any 21 will reveal keystoning distortion if not held straight and level. It is inherent in the focal length, and the SA is no exception.

The Elmarit has a touch of corrected barrel distortion (a.k.a. "moustache distortion") - pointed at a brick wall, the lines of bricks bow outwards very slightly in the "fisheye" style, and then curve back to align at the corners. Nevertheless I have used it for professional architectural work very successfully.

Administration Building and Laboratories, Anschutz Campus, University of Colorado Medical School. 21 Elmarit-M, M9.

For the record, the 21 pre-ASPH was the very first M lens I bought 19 years ago - and the only one I have never sold (also the first lens I had upgraded to 6-bit, back in 2006). The rich Mandler handling of architectural and sky colors, and the moderate contrast under stark light, make it invaluable.

It just keeps on doing the job and earning me awards and sales.

Edited February 9, 2020 by adan

[ianman]

I have both those lenses.... well almost, I have the 21mm Elmarit Asph and the 21mm SA 3.4

On 2/8/2020 at 3:43 AM, ash13brook said:

a) Will the SA damage either the M7 or 262? Or is it just a metering thing? I probably can live with having to shoot manually only...probably. 

I have used the SA on both MP and M9. No damage to either but indeed you can't use the meter. Well you can, you just need to compensate (3 stops IIRC).

I don't use the SA for colour on the M9 as I don't have software to deal with the "italian flag" issue, however, it's great for B&W.

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M9, 21mm Super-Angulon, orange filter

[DwF]

I had and loved the 21 Elmarit-M for several years. I came on the a deal I felt I could not refuse for the 21 SEM and eventually sold my Elmarit.   I did a couple interiors to A-B the two, and managed on a couple of occasions to get flare with the older lens. I thought worth mentioning since it hasn't come up here but always felt that the 21 Elmarit-M was unfairly treated in reviews. In my opinion a sleeper that also handles very nicely.

David

[Jul]

On 2/8/2020 at 11:03 AM, lct said:

The SA 21/3.4 has a lot of character but will cause false meter readings and strong vignetting and color shift on your M262 if it behaves like my M240

I tried neither the SA 21/3.4 not the M240 but had some success mitigating the color shift of a SA 21/4 on a M9 choosing the profile for the 21 Elmarit-M pre-asph in the lens menu.

Maybe it would also help with the 21/3.4 on M240.

See there:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/268173-the-view-through-older-glass/?do=findComment&comment=3691829

It is not cropped and not corrected. The left side is somewhat reddish but much less than in your example. I won't talk of the right side for an obvious reason.

[lct]

I have no experience with the SA 21/4 but my Sony A7s mod does so much better with the SA 21/3.4 that i don't use it with my M240 anymore.

[ash13brook]

Thanks for the help.

I was hoping to make a decision and order the one I had decided on. I can see that I'm going to have to take a train ride into the city(Chicago) and look at them in person. Then, after I choose one and buy it, spend the train ride home thinking I should have bought the other!

 

Thanks,

Matt

 

[a.noctilux]

😊Matt,

take a taxi and/or buy the two lenses

 

problem solved 😇     (for a while ....) untill next dilemma, of course.

Either one (or the two ! ) can become right or wrong choice depending on you.

Edited February 10, 2020 by a.noctilux

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[farnz]

On 2/8/2020 at 11:29 AM, a.noctilux said:

Digital use, 4/21 here on M8 (28mm field ... )

Cimetière de Montmartre?

Pete.

[a.noctilux]

2 hours ago, farnz said:

Cimetière de Montmartre?

Pete.

Hello Pete,

yes view from the metallic bridge which passes "up and through" the cemetery of Montmartre.