Mono 264 or M10M

[Likaleica]

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1 hour ago, mmradman said:

Majority of publicly available M10M pictures including native files i saw suffer from sharpness issues, could be something to do with low light, low shutter speed high MP.

Using M246 (24Mp) i tend to shoot at least 1/250sec or faster and am getting pretty sharp images.  Incidentally, shooting Nikon Z7 which is 46Mp and having IBIS seems to make all the differenfe between sharp and blurry.

The few pix I have posted appear much softer as Forum posts than the jpgs themselves, so I wouldn't go by that.  Also, this sensor with any Leica lens is not going to produce an unsharp picture.  If it's truly unsharp then it's probably user error.  Female subjects may not like it because it shows the fuzzy chin hairs they love to pluck.

[mmradman]

One need better shooting technique with higher MP camera than lower MP counterpart.  Any add on to assist  handheld sharp shooting helps, no surprise that SL mk 2 is fitted with IBIS.

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, mmradman said:

One need better shooting technique with higher MP camera than lower MP counterpart.  Any add on to assist  handheld sharp shooting helps, no surprise that SL mk 2 is fitted with IBIS.

If your output of M10 Monochrom is the same size as the output of M264, e.g., print or social media, then the same techniques apply for both cameras (shutter speed, support, etc.). 

Many people look at images at 100%. There a difference may be seen; however, the M10M has only 30% more resolution in height or width than M246.

On a crusade against the high-resolution-Angst :-).

 

[mmradman]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

If your output of M10 Monochrom is the same size as the output of M264, e.g., print or social media, then the same techniques apply for both cameras (shutter speed, support, etc.). 

Many people look at images at 100%. There a difference may be seen; however, the M10M has only 30% more resolution in height or width than M246.

On a crusade against the high-resolution-Angst :-).

 

You are spot on about high-rez Angst, the M246 stays.

[Kamyar]

I've been in this job for about twenty years.  Cinematographer and photographer.  Since everything was done on Negative film.  At that time I tested a lot of cameras and got the legendary leica m6 done and still have it and use it.  After years of enjoying mono246.  I know very well that what a photographer does is not a camera, but I am.  After so many years and experience in different brands I know the numbers in leica are not accidental.  Perhaps the more important question is, apart from money, don't you want to have a m10m? 

[mmradman]

That one is easy.

I would like to have M10M, as I already have good M246 I think I can spend money better by keeping what I have already.

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

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On 2/3/2020 at 6:20 PM, wolfloid said:

6. It seems the early reviewers are confirming my suspicion 40MP files require the use of a higher shutter speed to get a fully sharp image than is needed on the M246; this seems to more-or-less negate the 1 stop noise/banding advantage of the M10M that Reid Reviews indicates.

This is pretty much obviously wrong.

In order to need half the shutterspeed, you would need four times the Megapixels.

A jump from 24 to 40 megapixel however is maybe a third stop faster shutterspeed needed, all else equal. Not more.

And even if you forget that - you would still have the same resolution as with a 24 Megapixel sensor.

 

[mmradman]

All the marketing and GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) apart there is a valid debate between camera specification and camera use.

For me the camera is documentation device which i can use in two major ways, emotional and forensic, and any camera can be used for either.  Also there is nothing wrong with high shutter speed, or high ISO,  it helps if it can provide recording in least favourable light conditions.

If i am after the emotional record than the utilisation of every pixel is irrelevant, as long as the scene is recognisable it has value (to me at least), it helps if image is reasonably sharp and in focus*.  This kind of photography doesn't really need high MP although argument for cropping ability is a valid one.

If i am after forensic, if you like, record than the utilisation of every pixel is desired.  So, if we are to fully utilise all 40Mp and perhaps avoid use of tripod, remote shutter relaese, etc, than adequate shutter speed with or without high ISO is necessary.

*Note - needless to say there are some famous photographs recording historical events which are technically poor, Robert Capa's D-Day landing spring to mind.

[Likaleica]

2 hours ago, mmradman said:

needless to say there are some famous photographs recording historical events which are technically poor, Robert Capa's D-Day landing spring to mind.

bingo

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, mmradman said:

*Note - needless to say there are some famous photographs recording historical events which are technically poor, Robert Capa's D-Day landing spring to mind.

It was not Capa's intention that they come out that way. The negatives were accidentally damaged.

[mmradman]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

It was not Capa's intention that they come out that way. The negatives were accidentally damaged.

Exactly, but it doesn't diminish emotional appeal of the image. 

Nowadays, choosing between low MP and high MP camera it is the most captivating image that matters.

[geoffreyg]

We are all undergoing a shift in technical capabilities of our gear, which allows us to take photos at a quality level and in difficult situations where we were limited before. Part of the joy is "new toy" fun, as we can now shoot handheld into the night with crisp images; another part are improvements in resolution, sharpness, etc., raising the bar on expectations and our work. 

Earlier work in the discipline may have a visceral appeal,  "it was more pure, more direct", and perhaps it was. Certainly grounds for some lengthy discussion. 

One of the difficulties today (M10M especially) is to work within the virtues of new capabilities. Are we expanding our work envelope, or just chasing after the new? Possibly both. And how many M10M nighttime shots do we expect?

 

[Herr Barnack]

On 2/3/2020 at 9:20 AM, Likaleica said:

I can think of only 3 reasons.  

1. You love the form factor and UI of the M10 platform much more than the 240 platform;

2. You plan to make very large black and white landscape prints

3. You need higher ISO for your photography

Fourth reason:

4. You want it (and can afford it). 😁

5:  It's is a quality of life issue.

6:  It's mocking me.

 

 

[a.noctilux]

22 hours ago, Kamyar said:

I've been in this job for about twenty years. 

...  

Perhaps the more important question is, apart from money, don't you want to have a m10m? 

 

In twenty years of your job, Kamyar

I think that you always have (or had) what ever gear which can enhance your work (or your production).

If this M10 Monochrom could do the same = better than M246, why hesitate ?

I think also that some people here (or elsewhere) would use the M10M as expected.

Some people would hesitate because of the cost, but happily not you ...

Here, nine pages (growing) to read 😉

 

Edited February 5, 2020 by a.noctilux

[Kamyar]

30 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

 

In twenty years of your job, Kamyar

I think that you always have (or had) what ever gear which can enhance your work (or your production).

If this M10 Monochrom could do the same = better than M246, why hesitate ?

I think also that some people here (or elsewhere) would use the M10M as expected.

Some people would hesitate because of the cost, but happily not you ...

Here, nine pages (growing) to read 😉

 

It's always better to know more.  Experiences come together

[Mt83073]

On 2/4/2020 at 8:56 AM, mmradman said:

Apart from few Neuro Surgeons and Dentists majority, myself included, have shaky hands.  High shutter speed and/or IBIS is a god send.

First non derogatory post I’ve ever seen mentioning doctors, dentists, and leicas😉

[mediumformula]

Has anyone done a comprehensive comparison of these two cameras yet?

[a.noctilux]

5 hours ago, mediumformula said:

Has anyone done a comprehensive comparison of these two cameras yet?

Have you seen this thread with link, of Jeff Jager ?

[Herr Barnack]

On 2/4/2020 at 8:56 AM, mmradman said:

Apart from few Neuro Surgeons and Dentists majority, myself included, have shaky hands.  High shutter speed and/or IBIS is a god send.

Try using a monopod.  They help.  A lot.

Quote

... my technique sucks and I’m getting the same results at 1/60 as I did with MM1 and M246.  This is mostly as low as I go because my technique is garbage...

Try higher shutter speeds.  For 28mm and 35mm lenses, make 1/125 your slowest shutter speed for hand holding your shots; 1/200 for 50mm lenses. 

If you cannot get a shutter speed of 3 or 4x the focal length of your lens, use a monopod.  At the bare minimum, brace your hand and the arm connected to the hand that is holding the camera against a solid, stationary object when shooting freehand.

Edited March 2, 2020 by Herr Barnack

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[mmradman]

16 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Try using a monopod.  They help.  A lot.

Try higher shutter speeds.  For 28mm and 35mm lenses, make 1/125 your slowest shutter speed for hand holding your shots; 1/200 for 50mm lenses. 

If you cannot get a shutter speed of 3 or 4x the focal length of your lens, use a monopod.  At the bare minimum, brace your hand and the arm connected to the hand that is holding the camera against a solid, stationary object when shooting freehand.

Monopod? And you talk from personal experience, Leica M in the street setup with let’s say 50mm lens, somehow I don’t think so.  

Not sure where you got your second quote, please don’t mix it up when quoting me, none of those words are mine. My remark was that people in professions that require steady hand just have steady hands for photography, or at least claim to have steady hands. I personally use 1/4f rule for my shutter speeds if light and aperture allows it plus all sort of bracing and improvised stabilisation technics.  No problem getting non blurry image on 24Mp camera.