M10 Monochrom - would you always use a yellow filter for better tonality or not?

[Chaemono]

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Hi folks, I think I will always leave a yellow filter on, I think.  I like the tonality coming out of the M10M better that way.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-7XdTDJ/

Without yellow filter

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With yellow filter

[Guest Nowhereman]

I doubt that one can generalize from this subject because it's easy to adjust one way or the other. It would be better to determine this from a series of comparative shots that include skin tones, skies with and without clouds and tree leaves.
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[a.noctilux]

I would not use only yellow filter on my Monochrome.

For some subject, I'd use yellow, green, yellow-green, orange, red, etc. or no filter at all.

Each "colored" filter must be used to "follow" the tonalities (of the colored subject) and not always good for all subjects.

[AceVentura1986]

FWIW, I mostly use my M9M with an orange filter as I really like the effect it has on rendering skin tones. Yellow is a filter I reserve for nighttime use as I find it has little to no effect on the exposure and still manages to render pleasing skin tones under nighttime artificial light. 

Of course the M10M might render light a bit differently. 

[Danno_photoguy]

I find this useful, in regards to the use of filters on my M246

https://themachineplanet.wordpress.com/2015/09/16/the-leica-monochrom-typ-246-and-filters/

[Ken Abrahams]

I also use the orange filter more than any of the others. The light is bright contrasty where I live and its nicer to see tonal range for blue sky darken by using the orange or even yellow. When I am in cloudy foggy, wintery cities I do not use the filters at all. The orange filter can assist with facial tones adding just enough brighter tone to help in post work. Using filters is no different to shooting black and white films and their emulsions response to different wavelengths of light. I always take a few filters with me, including the ND 3 stopper so that I can regulate brighter light when exposing for f2 and not to exceed 1/4000 sec shutter speed.       

[Chuck Albertson]

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I habitually shoot with a K2 filter on the M9M, as its sensor responds very like much panchromatic film (and I usually shoot film with that filter). I don't know if the M10M sensor is similar. Also, since it's always gloomy here, a K2 punches up the contrast a bit while eating up only 2/3 stop of light..

[nicci78]

I preferred Orange filter with original monochrom. Yellow filter effect is too subtle. 

[M9reno]

This is what an old classic from the era of predominantly b/w photography has to say on the matter (Fritz Vith, Leica Handbook, 1933, p. 107):

”Recent systematic investigations have shown that the short-wave blue and ultra-violet rays, when utilised separately to produce a photographic image, yield the highest degree of sharpness on the negative.  This diminishes, however, gradually in the same measure as rays of longer wave-lengths become associated with these rays in the formation of the image, and, still more so, if the long-wave rays alone are allowed to act. 
 

Since the yellow filters which are provided for use with the orthochromatic films sensitised for yellow-green, and the panchromatic films sensitised for yellow-red, filter out the blue rays to a very considerable extent, it follows that they weaken the very element which contributes most to the sharpness of the image.”  (Emphasis mine)

I’d be keen to know if this advice has been debunked / does not apply to a bayerless b/w sensor.  If true, the loss in sharpness through yellow filter use should be most apparent on a high-res sensor like the M10M’s.

[M10Alpine]

I had my first day out today with the M10M and a 50mm APO with an Orange filter. Will post. pictures tomorrow

 

 

[AceVentura1986]

On 1/28/2020 at 5:55 AM, M9reno said:

This is what an old classic from the era of predominantly b/w photography has to say on the matter (Fritz Vith, Leica Handbook, 1933, p. 107):

”Recent systematic investigations have shown that the short-wave blue and ultra-violet rays, when utilised separately to produce a photographic image, yield the highest degree of sharpness on the negative.  This diminishes, however, gradually in the same measure as rays of longer wave-lengths become associated with these rays in the formation of the image, and, still more so, if the long-wave rays alone are allowed to act. 
 

Since the yellow filters which are provided for use with the orthochromatic films sensitised for yellow-green, and the panchromatic films sensitised for yellow-red, filter out the blue rays to a very considerable extent, it follows that they weaken the very element which contributes most to the sharpness of the image.”  (Emphasis mine)

I’d be keen to know if this advice has been debunked / does not apply to a bayerless b/w sensor.  If true, the loss in sharpness through yellow filter use should be most apparent on a high-res sensor like the M10M’s.

Wow, that is fascinating as I had always though it was the green channel that is most responsible for sharpness. Still, I think it is the blue channel that tends to darken skin tones on my M9M. If true, this would mean choosing between sharpness or pleasing skin tones. Wow, a real devil’s dilema. 

[UliWer]

Am 28.1.2020 um 11:55 schrieb M9reno:

...I’d be keen to know if this advice has been debunked / does not apply to a bayerless b/w sensor.  If true, the loss in sharpness through yellow filter use should be most apparent on a high-res sensor like the M10M’s.

Another "classic" book about photography with Leica - Emmermann/Neumann, Leica-Technik, 1951, p. 121 - describes the effect filters may have on sharprness as a result of the film's layer. They explain that the sensitivity for different spectral colours is not equal for all film types and so different films may show differences as far as the effect on sharpness by color filters is concerned. They also mention the thickness of the film's layer having an effect on sharpness which may be influenced by filters and recommend films with thin layers.

Since the sensor does not have any "thickness" comparable to film, the later mentioned effect on sharpness by using filters will not be of any importance. Whether there is any effect caused by differing in sensitivity for the color spectrum needs to be tested - though I am rather sure you'll see no effect as long as you do not use red filters. 

Edited February 2, 2020 by UliWer

[Chaemono]

Am 28.1.2020 um 11:55 schrieb M9reno:

[...[

I’d be keen to know if this advice has been debunked / does not apply to a bayerless b/w sensor.  If true, the loss in sharpness through yellow filter use should be most apparent on a high-res sensor like the M10M’s.

Check out the yellow filter eyebrow detail by first using the SmugMug magnifying glass and then by pinching to zoom further in the less compressed JPEG here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Zd87Qg/.  The person was moving and likely talking so there is some motion blur around the mouth.  The picture is a slight crop form an ISO 2000 file with NR +15 and sharpening +50 in LR.  Sharp enough for me.  Yellow filter is the default filter on my lenses for the M10M.

M10 Monochrom + APO 50 Summicron-M

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ISO 2000 f/5.6 @1/350 sec.

[UliWer]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Chaemono:

...Yellow filter is the default filter on my lenses for the M10M....

From another classic about Leica photography: "Leica Manual" by Willard D. Morgan & Henry M. Lester, 1951, p. 82:

"Filters an Their Uses - The first rule in the use of a filter may be stated as follows:

Use no filter unless you know exactly what you want to accomplish! More pictures have been spoiled through the haphazard and indiscriminate use of filters than by the lack of any filter whatever. Unless the effect of the filter on the picture as a whole is considered carefully, the use of a filter to "correct" one part of the picture may result in a falsification of other parts that is more objectionable than the original lack of balance."

[Chaemono]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb UliWer:

From another classic about Leica photography: "Leica Manual" by Willard D. Morgan & Henry M. Lester, 1951, p. 82:

"Filters an Their Uses - The first rule in the use of a filter may be stated as follows:

Use no filter unless you know exactly what you want to accomplish! More pictures have been spoiled through the haphazard and indiscriminate use of filters than by the lack of any filter whatever. Unless the effect of the filter on the picture as a whole is considered carefully, the use of a filter to "correct" one part of the picture may result in a falsification of other parts that is more objectionable than the original lack of balance."

Thanks.  I’m sure you know all what follows, but it’s good to state it.  If a scene is comprised of a lot of yellow, a yellow filter will do more harm than good. 

https://themachineplanet.wordpress.com/2015/09/16/the-leica-monochrom-typ-246-and-filters/

“But as far as contrast goes, the reality is that the effect of a filter is profoundly influenced by the color of the light hitting the scene – as well as the color of the objects in the scene. If the predominant light color is complementary to the filter color, then the scene will simply be muddy – because the filter acts as a neutral-density filter.”

Still, the most compelling argument to use always a yellow filter as a default is that the M10M and the Typ 246 create oftentimes very flat looking files. They are almost too smooth and too silky in a way.  And the reason that they look flat is, IMO, that the distance of luminance between two colors is oftentimes very short meaning that the amount of contrast between two colors is very low (contrast defined as the distance of luminance).  Since a B&W sensor only records luminance, it cannot easily distinguish between colors of similar  brightness.  Hence, flat looking files.  See here: https://www.vision-doctor.com/en/colour-filters.html

And a screenshot from the linked article:

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A yellow filter must change the distance of luminance between two colors slightly, and, therefore, allow for better tonal separation, IMO.

Maybe Vieri can help out here: https://www.vieribottazzini.com/2014/01/colours-with-the-leica-m-monochrom.html 

[UliWer]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Chaemono:

...If a scene is comprised of a lot of yellow, a yellow filter will do more harm than good. ...

 

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Chaemono:

…If the predominant light color is complementary to the filter color, then the scene will simply be muddy…

Just have a look at these two statements: yellow filter will do harm, if there is a lot of yellow; yellow filter will make the scene muddy, if the predominant light is complimentary to yellow - i.e. blue.

So, if both statements are true - and I think they are - why would one use a yellow filter generally? Predominant yellow or blue light are no very rare exceptions.

    

[nicci78]

Hum. You should know that Leica Monochrom sensors do not react as N&B negatives. 
 

I tested all of them : B+W and Heliopan. 
yellow is good for cloudy days  

orange is the best for sunny days and for landscape. Clouds will stand out beautifully. 

Yellow-green is perfect for white people portraits. 

light red is excellent for dramatic landscape

dark red is very special and hard to focus. Please use live view. But you can simulate night in daylight. Just like old days movie. Very nice look. But very hard to achieve, because you will need lots of lights.

blue for ethereal moody dawn landscape. Even better with misty days. 

For interiors : use yellow or no filter at all. 
 

It seems complicated and cumbersome. But it is not. Just screw the best filter for the day. 
You won’t need to chance more than once a day. Weather is not changing that fast. 
If you are unsure of the colour. Just use Orange. 
 

 you should consider to switch all your lenses to E46 only. Like that you can share filters among most of Leica lenses. From 21 to 135mm. 
E39 ; E49 & E55 have too limited lens selection. 

Edited February 3, 2020 by nicci78

[M9reno]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Hum. You should know that Leica Monochrom sensors do not react as N&B negatives. 
 

It is clear that they are very different technologies, no argument there.

But why blocking short-wave (blue) waves with a yellow filter would induce a lack of sharpness in one, but not in the other, is not clear to me.

The physical explanation would be much appreciated.

[Chaemono]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb UliWer:

 

Just have a look at these two statements: yellow filter will do harm, if there is a lot of yellow; yellow filter will make the scene muddy, if the predominant light is complimentary to yellow - i.e. blue.

So, if both statements are true - and I think they are - why would one use a yellow filter generally? Predominant yellow or blue light are no very rare exceptions.

    

You’re right the way you pose the question to show an apparent contradiction...

vor 2 Stunden schrieb nicci78:

Hum. You should know that Leica Monochrom sensors do not react as N&B negatives. 
 

I tested all of them : B+W and Heliopan. 
yellow is good for cloudy days  

orange is the best for sunny days and for landscape. Clouds will stand out beautifully. 

Yellow-green is perfect for white people portraits. 

light red is excellent for dramatic landscape

dark red is very special and hard to focus. Please use live view. But you can simulate night in daylight. Just like old days movie. Very nice look. But very hard to achieve, because you will need lots of lights.

blue for ethereal moody dawn landscape. Even better with misty days. 

For interiors : use yellow or no filter at all. 
 

It seems complicated and cumbersome. But it is not. Just screw the best filter for the day. 
You won’t need to chance more than once a day. Weather is not changing that fast. 
If you are unsure of the colour. Just use Orange. 
 

 you should consider to switch all your lenses to E46 only. Like that you can share filters among most of Leica lenses. From 21 to 135mm. 
E39 ; E49 & E55 have too limited lens selection. 

...and you are right the way you answer.

Based on my experience, and subjective perception, for that matter (I haven’t done thorough empirical tests), I find that the yellow filter in most situations makes for better tonal separation, irrespective of whether the color yellow is present in a scene or not.  Here is my reasoning: the yellow filter let’s through yellow light but blocks blue light, its complementary color.  And by blocking the blue wavelengths, objects of all color appear sharper.  Do you remember the blue-blocking sunglasses that were popular in the U.S. in the 1980s?

I’ll try to do a test with M&Ms, photographing them with and without a yellow filter.  M&Ms may be a particularly suitable subjects for this experiment because M&Ms of all colors used to contain yellow dye No. 5.  I suppose Mars has replaced that dye with some natural yellow coloring now.  Let’s see which picture of those M&Ms looks flatter and which shows better tonal separation. 😁

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[Chaemono]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb Chaemono:

[...]

Still, the most compelling argument to use always a yellow filter as a default is that the M10M and the Typ 246 create oftentimes very flat looking files. They are almost too smooth and too silky in a way.  And the reason that they look flat is, IMO, that the distance of luminance between two colors is oftentimes very short meaning that the amount of contrast between two colors is very low (contrast defined as the distance of luminance).  Since a B&W sensor only records luminance, it cannot easily distinguish between colors of similar  brightness.  Hence, flat looking files.  See here: https://www.vision-doctor.com/en/colour-filters.html

And a screenshot from the linked article:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

A yellow filter must change the distance of luminance between two colors slightly, and, therefore, allow for better tonal separation, IMO.

Maybe Vieri can help out here: https://www.vieribottazzini.com/2014/01/colours-with-the-leica-m-monochrom.html 

I found this great article here: https://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/light/Lesson-2/Color-Subtraction on color subtraction and I want to expand on the argument that a yellow filter must change the distance of luminance between two colors and, therefore, allow for better tonal separation.  "The color of an object does not reside in the object itself. Rather, the color is in the light that shines upon the object and that ultimately becomes reflected or transmitted to [the sensor]."  Since a yellow filter 'subtracts' blue light, it must change all the tones where blue light plays a role slightly.  See below examples from the linked text where blue light matters.

"In Example A, white light (i.e., a mixture of red, green and blue) shines upon a magenta filter. Magenta absorbs its complementary color - green. Thus, green is subtracted from white light. That leaves red and blue light to be transmitted by the filter. For this reason, the filter will appear magenta (recall that magenta light is a mixture of red and blue light) when illuminated with white light. This process of color subtraction can be represented by the following equation.

W - G = (R + G + B ) - G = R + B = M

In Example B, yellow light (i.e., a mixture of red and green) shines upon the same magenta filter. Magenta absorbs its complementary color - green. Thus, green is subtracted from yellow light. That leaves red light to be transmitted by the filter. For this reason, the filter will appear red when illuminated with yellow light. This process of color subtraction can be represented by the following equation.

Y - G = (R + G) - G = R

In Example C, cyan light (i.e., a mixture of blue and green) shines upon the same magenta filter. Magenta absorbs its complementary color - green. Thus, green is subtracted from cyan light. That leaves blue light to be transmitted by the filter. For this reason, the filter will appear blue when illuminated with cyan light. This process of color subtraction can be represented by the following equation.

C - G = (B + G) - G = B"

Edited February 3, 2020 by Chaemono