APO M 35 Summicron??

[lct]

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What you're describing are the effects of apochromatic elements as i comprehend the quote below. But those elements do exist don't they?  

Quote

Apochromatic elements. These have more names than you can remember: Fluorite, UD, ULD, SLD, etc, etc. The basic premise of these elements is they bend all wavelengths (i.e. colors) of light the same amount, reducing or eliminating chromatic aberration [...]

Lensrentals

 

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[jaapv]

Yes, obviously a lens designer needs elements with specific properties to obtain specific results. Many (non APO) lenses will contain such elements to correct chromatic aberration to some extent, but the designation "APO" refers to the result from the complete lens, not to the construction as such.

[lct]

So if apochromatic elements exist, you agree that some lenses have one or several of them and others none don't you?

Edited December 29, 2019 by lct

[wattsy]

On 12/26/2019 at 11:42 PM, Kendoo said:

The 35 Summicron M is a good lens but I am needing "something more". Maybe the Summilux 1.4 can provide that extra quality I am after

I think you need to be more specific about what the "something more" and "extra quality" are exactly. If it's resolution and sharpness I think you are going to be in for a disappointment. I have both the Summicron and Summilux and neither offers significant "extra quality" compared with the other (apart from a stop extra speed in the case of the Summilux). If you want to step up noticeably you'll have to get over your reluctance to go medium format.

Edited December 29, 2019 by wattsy

[otto.f]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Err- no.  As Andy explains, it is a lens that focuses in the same plane for all three RGB colours in three points of the image plane (Leica uses four), by whichever correction method.
As only three points are specified, an APO lens can still give severe chromatic aberration...   But usually doesn't.

Wideangle lenses are by nature apochromatic, the correction for chromatic aberration becomes more important - and difficult- as focal length increases.

It seems to be a trend in the market because Schneider brought out an “APO 5.6/24mm” for the ALPA, which is certainly a laugh: it is very hard to believe that a wideangle with 5.6 as the widest aperture does not have all the three  basic colors in the focal point. Maybe they expect with this nomenclature to compete successfully with Rodenstock with its 5.6/23mm not being called APO.

[RexGig0]

“Something more” might be obtainable, with a Zeiss 35mm f/1.4 Distagon ZM. This one is newer than the film-era ZM lenses. While I am extremely loyal to my Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, which was the lure that pulled me into the Leica M system, I am perfectly content to use this Zeiss lens at 35mm. While it is not compact, it is not very heavy, feeling about like my black aluminum Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, and it does not not block enough of the viewfinder to bother me.

 

Edited December 29, 2019 by RexGig0

[lct]

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"Something more" could mean an overwhelming superiority of the Summilux at f/1.4 more sharpness on edges and corners at f/2, less CA, less distortion and less flare as far as my lenses are concerned at least (35/1.4 FLE vs 35/2 asph v1). Not to say that the Summicron asph is mediocre but the Summilux FLE is slightly superior on these points. Now i prefer the OoF rendition of the Summicron asph let alone its smaller size but i wish it were as compact as earlier Summicrons or the current Ultron 35/2.

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, jaapv said:

That is probably true, but it has nothing to do with being "APO" Andy's point is that Leica has modified the designation "APO" to mean "high end" for marketing reasons.

I’m well aware; the comment was directed to the OP’s first post, where he said he was looking for something better than the 35 M Summicron.  Elsewhere in a video interview that I linked between Karbe and Brownstone, Karbe also comments on the SL Summicron’s APO designation.

Jeff

[adan]

1 hour ago, lct said:

What you're describing are the effects of apochromatic elements as i comprehend the quote below. But those elements do exist don't they? 

That quote from Lensrentals is what scientists (and novelist Terry Pratchett) would call "Lies to Children" - a simplified (and thus fundamentally incorrect) explanation of science or technology that laymen can understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children

A single low-dispersion glass element can't be apochromatic, since by itself it focuses nothing anywhere, and the definition of apochromatic is "focuses three wavelengths of light in the same plane."

It may be a useful part of a complete apochromatic lens - once combined with multiple other glass elements. But it is possible (although difficult) to create an APO lens without it - or to build a lens with low-dispersion glass that is still not apochromatic.

One can make an easily-folding table out of steel - but who would list "easy to fold" as a general characteristic of steel itself?

[Ken Abrahams]

2 hours ago, wattsy said:

I think you need to be more specific about what the "something more" and "extra quality" are exactly. If it's resolution and sharpness I think you are going to be in for a disappointment. I have both the Summicron and Summilux and neither offers significant "extra quality" compared with the other (apart from a stop extra speed in the case of the Summilux). If you want to step up noticeably you'll have to get over your reluctance to go medium format.

Thanks Wattsy, in the hands of some photographers who post online, I have seen the quality in sharpness, colour render and form (bokeh) of images that the Summilux 1.4 can achieve. I hear what you say though, they might not perform with “excellence” in all situations. 
ken 

[scott kirkpatrick]

19 hours ago, adan said:

That quote from Lensrentals is what scientists (and novelist Terry Pratchett) would call "Lies to Children" - a simplified (and thus fundamentally incorrect) explanation of science or technology that laymen can understand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lie-to-children

A single low-dispersion glass element can't be apochromatic, since by itself it focuses nothing anywhere, and the definition of apochromatic is "focuses three wavelengths of light in the same plane."

It may be a useful part of a complete apochromatic lens - once combined with multiple other glass elements. But it is possible (although difficult) to create an APO lens without it - or to build a lens with low-dispersion glass that is still not apochromatic.

One can make an easily-folding table out of steel - but who would list "easy to fold" as a general characteristic of steel itself?

That's a very old article. Roger has seen a lot of lenses disassembled and measured even more since then.  But there is one bit of confusion in his article and throughout this thread.  All glasses exhibit dispersion, bending each wavelength of light a different amount.  Control of chromatic error in lenses comes from combining enough elements with different dispersion characteristics to achieve the APO objective, as originally defined.  So there is no such thing as an achromatic element, only achromatic multi-element lenses.

Of course a single element can focus light somewhere.  You can prove this the next time you need to start a fire outdoors using a pair of spectacles to make a hot spot with the sun's light.

Oh, and I doubt there will be a compact, mechanical manual focus  M version of the dozen-element, internal focussing, dual autofocus, firmware-controlled SL APO Summicrons.  They are in a completely different part of the design space.

 

Edited December 30, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

[dante]

19 minutes ago, Kendoo said:

Thanks Wattsy, in the hands of some photographers who post online, I have seen the quality in sharpness, colour render and form (bokeh) of images that the Summilux 1.4 can achieve. I hear what you say though, they might not perform with “excellence” in all situations. 
ken 

Not that I am inclined to defend Leica's price/performance ratio, but yours sounds like an abstract want unless you have a specific application where a 35/2 APO would have some advantage over the 35/2 ASPH. The next step up would be a lot of money, weight, and cost for probably not very much benefit.

[Jeff S]

27 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

That's a very old article. Roger has seen a lot of lenses disassembled and measured even more since then.  But there is one bit of confusion in his article and throughout this thread.  All glasses exhibit dispersion, bending each wavelength of light a different amount.  Control of chromatic error in lenses comes from combining enough elements with different dispersion characteristics to achieve the APO objective, as originally defined.  So there is no such thing as an achromatic element, only achromatic multi-element lenses.

Of course a single element can focus light somewhere.  You can prove this the next time you need to start a fire outdoors using a pair of spectacles to make a hot spot with the sun's light.

Oh, and I doubt there will be a compact, mechanical manual focus version  M version of the dozen-element, internal focussing, dual autofocus, firmware-controlled SL APO Summicrons.  They are in a completely different part of the design space.

 

In this old interview with Karbe  (that I’ve linked elsewhere) regarding the 50 Summilux M ASPH, he does however discuss the special nature of some glasses used to reduce color aberrations.  He notes that one such element in this lens had to be reinvented, and that single glass element cost more than all the other elements combined.  Keeping things small and spectacular can come at a steep price, if even possible.

https://www.shutterbug.com/content/leica-lens-saga-interview-peter-karbe-page-2

Jeff

Edited December 29, 2019 by Jeff S

[Ken Abrahams]

Yes, I want more micro contrast and sharpness and resolution than the 35 Summicron without medium format or deviating  from using Leica in my workflow. My image making varies a lot. From strong monochromatic Street images to colour abstract forms and Super realistic train images. I’m always squeezing “more“ out of post processing. I love the way the 35 Summicron works on the SL and it’s okay on the MMono, which has had its rangefinder adjusted a few times. I love the 50 APO (LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-M 50mmf/2 ASPH.) I love the 90M APO and the 21 SEM. The Idea of a 35 Noctilux would be special but probably out of my price bracket. 

[JonPB]

My understanding is that the 35/1.4 Asph. and 35/2 Asph both predated Mr. Karbe's elevation to senior management and the 50/2 APO and 21/3.4 that were developed under his control. (While he is the designer of the 35/2 Asph, it is largely adapted from the earlier 35/1.4 and likely reflects his technical ability rather than his optimization preferences or Leica's current resources.) Which is to say, I think it reasonable that Leica could develop a new 35/2 that has more of the clean and clear traits of the 50/2 APO than the somewhat funky patterns shared by the 35/1.4 Asph. and 35/2 Asph. without requiring the new 35mm lens to be APO.

(I also think that "apochromatic" could reasonably be translated as "not causing colors" as well as the technical definition used by designers of "focusing three wavelengths on the same plane." The terminology doesn't matter so much as the performance.)

Personally, I adore the wavy focal plane and glare of my 35/1.4 FLE over what I see as the bland correctness of the Zeiss 35/1.4, and I also prefer the conic focal plane and light blooming of my 21/2.8 Asph. over the, again, bland correctness of the 21/3.4. I appreciate the way these tiny lenses were designed to handle huge amounts of light better than their contemporary competition (but not as well as the huge, Otus-like standards of today), and they creak a bit at the edges of their capabilities, but that very creaking gives them character that sets them apart and above in my view. But I can understand why someone would want a technically superior 35mm from Leica -- especially since the basic optics of the 35/1.4 and 35/2 are almost 30 years old.

[Mark T]

15 hours ago, wattsy said:

I think you need to be more specific about what the "something more" and "extra quality" are exactly. If it's resolution and sharpness I think you are going to be in for a disappointment. I have both the Summicron and Summilux and neither offers significant "extra quality" compared with the other (apart from a stop extra speed in the case of the Summilux). If you want to step up noticeably you'll have to get over your reluctance to go medium format.

Something more expensive?

[maxfairclough]

On 12/27/2019 at 10:42 AM, Kendoo said:

Hi Stuart, I hear what you say about the differences between the 35 Summilux and Summicron. I have been researching the lens, tested the lens on my M Mono and seeing results that set the two lenses apart. The resolution and sharpness of the 1.4 is one thing that stands out for me. The obvious difference being the depth of field and use of bokeh. On one test shot I did with a Summilux 35, I was lazy and framed the image from further away instead of a closer composition. It was also too bright and I had to stop the lens down. The image was a good one but I had to crop into it for better composition. The resulting image reminded me of the 50 APO M lens and its ability for detail. Perhaps my question about a 35 M "APO" was born from this?

The 35 Summicron M is a good lens but I am needing "something more". Maybe the Summilux 1.4 can provide that extra quality I am after especially if there is no 35 "APO" M lens forthcoming. Having two 35 mm lenses isn't a bad idea for me although seems a little extravagant for a working man's hobby.

I am very happy with the SL and M Monochrome camera pairing and have no intentions of going medium format, nor will I be purchasing any SL lenses.    

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Just wanted to say hey! Someone from Perth!

(I have since moved to Melbourne)

[astrostl]

Without regard for "APO" marketing, I'd love to have an ultra-corrected Leica 35/2 along the lines of the 50/2 APO. Until then, it's the 35/1.4 ZEISS ZM for me.

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[Kwesi]

On 12/29/2019 at 10:54 AM, Kendoo said:

Yes, I want more micro contrast and sharpness and resolution than the 35 Summicron without medium format or deviating  from using Leica in my workflow. My image making varies a lot. From strong monochromatic Street images to colour abstract forms and Super realistic train images. I’m always squeezing “more“ out of post processing. I love the way the 35 Summicron works on the SL and it’s okay on the MMono, which has had its rangefinder adjusted a few times. I love the 50 APO (LEICA APO-SUMMICRON-M 50mmf/2 ASPH.) I love the 90M APO and the 21 SEM. The Idea of a 35 Noctilux would be special but probably out of my price bracket. 

If you are currently using the 35/2 ASPH v1, I would strongly suggest switching to the v2. I have used the v2 on the M246 and its ability to render fine detail is pretty amazing. Here is an example from me followed by a v1/v2 comparison with a 42mp sensor

https://www.streetsilhouettes.com/home/2016/7/9/leica-35mm-summicron-asph-i-vs-ii-24mp-vs-42mp-resolution-test

[Rob L]

Sample variation. The two Summicron 35 ASPH versions are optically identical. The 28 Summicron and Elmarit ASPH vII lenses are tweaked very slightly compared to the vI, lenses, but not the 35. I like the new hood better though.