Looking To Reduce VF Magnification

[PhoebusXS]

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I wear glass when I use the camera, making my eyes further away from the viewfinder's window. I struggle see the entire 35mm frameline, which is the focal length I am using.

I noticed there are VF magifier's aiming to bump up the magnification index (for eg from 0.72x to 1.0x).

Is there such a thing that works reverse-wise? To make it from 0.72 down to 0.6 or something?

It would be nice for me to see things outside of the current frame. With LV or EVF I couldn't do it anyways so sadly that's not a solution.

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[mujk]

This has been discussed before, e.g. here:

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/302333-35mm-framelines/

Try searching the forum for "magnification"

[peterm1_Leica]

The unit  I am familiar with is the one sold by Japan Exposures which provides a 0.85x magnification. However, it is a discontinued item and the store has sold out. But they may be available on the 2nd hand market. 

https://www.japanexposures.com/shop/accessories/ms-mag-x0.85w-magnifier-for-leica-m.html

https://www.japanexposures.com/shop/accessories/viewfinder/page-3/

I am not sure if the M10 viewfinder is the same diameter as the other M cameras. I had understood (?) that there is a difference. If this is correct it would not fit. If they are the same then it should. Another thing I am not clear on is how much "relief" this magnifier provides - that is whether it facilitates use of eyeglasses from the viewpoint of how far back your eye can be although it would doubtlessly help with your concern about seeing the framelines. What I can say is that it (and all of this range which comes in various strengths (0.85x, 1.15x, 1.35x) has stepless diopter adjustment from -3.0 to +1.5 diopters. Which means that most people can adjust it so as to avoid the need to use glasses when focusing and composing. I own the +1.15x magnification lens from this company which I bought mainly for the diopter adjustment. 

Edited December 8, 2019 by peterm1_Leica

[a.noctilux]

Another path ...

I'd use the best aux VF like SBLOO/12010 ( I own one from my Barnack period for 3.5cm lens),

incredible clear and panoramic "out of field view" with two eyes viewing...

or another 35mm VF mounted on the shoe.

[farnz]

Match Technical (who make the 'Thumbs Up') also make the E-Clyps eye cup for Leica cameras.  The eye cup is designed to prevent spectacles from being scratched by the viewfinder mount but it naturally pushes the spectacles a little bit away from the viewfinder so the photographer's eye is further away and not all of the the frame lines are visible.

Match Technical used to sell a x0.35 'de-magnifier' that screws into the viewfinder to compensate for the eye cup distance, which sounds like what you might be looking for.  I can't see the de-magnifier listed on the website now so you might need to search the auction site or look for older unsold stock.  The de-magnifier was made for models prior to the M10 that have a smaller viewfinder ring diameter so you would also need to get the M10's viewfinder step-up ring/adaptor.

(For full disclosure I have no connection to Match Technical other than as an occasional customer.)

Match Technical E-Clyps eye cup webpage.

Pete.

[Jeff S]

On 12/8/2019 at 5:54 PM, peterm1_Leica said:

The unit  I am familiar with is the one sold by Japan Exposures which provides a 0.85x magnification. However, it is a discontinued item and the store has sold out. But they may be available on the 2nd hand market. 

https://www.japanexposures.com/shop/accessories/ms-mag-x0.85w-magnifier-for-leica-m.html

https://www.japanexposures.com/shop/accessories/viewfinder/page-3/

I am not sure if the M10 viewfinder is the same diameter as the other M cameras. I had understood (?) that there is a difference. If this is correct it would not fit. If they are the same then it should. Another thing I am not clear on is how much "relief" this magnifier provides - that is whether it facilitates use of eyeglasses from the viewpoint of how far back your eye can be although it would doubtlessly help with your concern about seeing the framelines. What I can say is that it (and all of this range which comes in various strengths (0.85x, 1.15x, 1.35x) has stepless diopter adjustment from -3.0 to +1.5 diopters. Which means that most people can adjust it so as to avoid the need to use glasses when focusing and composing. I own the +1.15x magnification lens from this company which I bought mainly for the diopter adjustment. 

The M10 VF has a larger diameter, higher magnification and provides better eye relief for eyeglass wearers.  

Also for the OP, if you haven’t already, try getting thinner, more flexible frames, with the thinnest possible and scratch resistant lenses, so you can get closer to the VF. 

Jeff

[adan]

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The World Cries Out for the return of the option of 0.58x (and 0.85x) viewfinders. 

But I think that ship has long sailed....especially with regard to "short-lived" digital models. Although Leica could always get weird and come out with a limited-edition of 1000 M10-Ps with 0.58x finders (with a Lenny Kravitz paint-job, no doubt, and paired with a matching 28 Summilux).

_______________________

To the original poster: Leica has produced devices to "minify" or "demagnify" the M viewfinder in the past.

Particularly for 35mm users. But - it is done via the front of the finder rather than the eyepiece, and requires specific 35mm lenses made for the original M3 (which had no 35mm framelines anyway). They come with fixed "goggles" that demagnify the 35mm view of the world to fit into the easier-to-see 50mm framelines (and trigger the 50 framelines automatically). Available as 35mm Summilux, 35mm Summicron, and 35 Summaron (f/2.8 or 3.5).

They will work as intended on all (?) modern Ms as well. But are a bit large and clunky. And of course they are the ca. 1960 versions of those lenses, not modern ASPH lenses (although many love them anyway).

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summicron_(I)_f%3D_3.5_cm_1:2

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-wiki.en/index.php/Summaron_f%3D_3.5_cm_1:2.8

The problem with an eyepiece lens is that demagnifying the viewfinder semi-permanently reduces the precision of the rangefinder - it becomes harder to correctly align the images visually if they are tiny (and easier if the images are magnified - thus the market for magnifiers). Unless one is willing to stick with one focal length, or be constantly removing/replacing the eyepiece with every change to/from a 90 Summicron or 75 Summilux or 135mm.

[250swb]

On 12/14/2019 at 2:05 PM, Jeff S said:

Also for the OP, if you haven’t already, try getting thinner, more flexible frames, with the thinnest possible and scratch resistant lenses, so you can get closer to the VF. 

 

This is a doable solution.

I once thought a .58 finder in an M7 I was ordering would be a great idea as a glasses wearer, turned out everything was tiny and focusing was much harder, should've thought it through more. But flexible frames and the best available coating on the lenses is by far the better option to a) not seeing the 28mm frameline, and b) screwing devices in and out even if such a thing was available. It is a small compromise, but then people who don't wear glasses compromise as well, they get eyebrow grease everywhere and tears fill the eyepiece when the sun goes in.

[peterm1_Leica]

On 12/15/2019 at 12:35 AM, Jeff S said:

The M10 VF has a larger diameter, higher magnification and provides better eye relief for eyeglass wearers.  

Also for the OP, if you haven’t already, try getting thinner, more flexible frames, with the thinnest possible and scratch resistant lenses, so you can get closer to the VF. 

Jeff

Thank you that is useful to confirm. I thought I had read something to this effect somewhere but could not find that reference. 

[lucerne]

9 hours ago, peterm1_Leica said:

Thank you that is useful to confirm. I thought I had read something to this effect somewhere but could not find that reference. 

It’s well described within Leica’s descriptive text in its product promotion  online.

“The improved viewfinder lets you see more

From the very beginning, the ‘Messsucher’ (combined rangefinder/viewfinder) of the Leica M played an essential role. So essential that it gave the system its name; the ‘M‘ stands for ‘Messsucher’. For the Leica M10, several important aspects of this legendary combined viewfinder and rangefinder system have now been further improved. To improve the view of the subject, the field of view has been enlarged by 30% and the magnification factor has been increased 0.73. In addition to this, the eye-relief distance has also been significantly increased. Thanks to a 50% increase in this distance, the viewfinder is much more convenient to use, particularly for photographers who wear glasses.

Edited December 17, 2019 by lucerne

[PhoebusXS]

On 12/9/2019 at 8:11 AM, farnz said:

Match Technical (who make the 'Thumbs Up') also make the E-Clyps eye cup for Leica cameras.  The eye cup is designed to prevent spectacles from being scratched by the viewfinder mount but it naturally pushes the spectacles a little bit away from the viewfinder so the photographer's eye is further away and not all of the the frame lines are visible.

Match Technical used to sell a x0.35 'de-magnifier' that screws into the viewfinder to compensate for the eye cup distance, which sounds like what you might be looking for.  I can't see the de-magnifier listed on the website now so you might need to search the auction site or look for older unsold stock.  The de-magnifier was made for models prior to the M10 that have a smaller viewfinder ring diameter so you would also need to get the M10's viewfinder step-up ring/adaptor.

(For full disclosure I have no connection to Match Technical other than as an occasional customer.)

Match Technical E-Clyps eye cup webpage.

Pete.

This cup in the link is just a shade, doesn't affect magnification.

I actually sent an email to them asking about the issue. I asked whether they are still making de-magnifier for M10, they said NO.

[farnz]

1 hour ago, PhoebusXS said:

This cup in the link is just a shade, doesn't affect magnification.

I actually sent an email to them asking about the issue. I asked whether they are still making de-magnifier for M10, they said NO.

Yes the Eye cup just shields the eye from peripheral light and provides no de-magnification on its own.  I don't think Match Technical ever made the De-magnifier to fit the M10 since the diameter of the M10's eyepiece was increased slightly from the diameter of the M240, M9, M8, M7, M6, M5, M4, M3, and M2, so you might need to ask them whether they can still supply a demagnifier to fit the M240 and acquire a stepping ring that Leica sells. Or you might be able to find one online.

By the way, my apologies for referring to it as a 0.35 de-magnifier; I've just looked at mine and and it's a 0.85 de-magnifier.  I don't use mine now since I moved my M240 on so if you can't find one online and still want one then I might be persuaded to part with mine.

Pete.

[PhoebusXS]

8 hours ago, farnz said:

Yes the Eye cup just shields the eye from peripheral light and provides no de-magnification on its own.  I don't think Match Technical ever made the De-magnifier to fit the M10 since the diameter of the M10's eyepiece was increased slightly from the diameter of the M240, M9, M8, M7, M6, M5, M4, M3, and M2, so you might need to ask them whether they can still supply a demagnifier to fit the M240 and acquire a stepping ring that Leica sells. Or you might be able to find one online.

By the way, my apologies for referring to it as a 0.35 de-magnifier; I've just looked at mine and and it's a 0.85 de-magnifier.  I don't use mine now since I moved my M240 on so if you can't find one online and still want one then I might be persuaded to part with mine.

Pete.

Thank you for the very kind offer.

I have decided to train my eyes and mind to couple with 0.72x magnification. 35mm is still manageable.

I think this would be a better decision for the years to come with Leica RFs cameras.

[Dennis]

On 12/23/2019 at 11:43 AM, PhoebusXS said:

I have decided to train my eyes and mind to couple with 0.72x magnification. 35mm is still manageable.

I think this would be a better decision for the years to come with Leica RFs cameras.

I was studying yesterday about this topic. I can see well the 35 frame lines into my M10. 🙂 But shooting with a 24 for example, if you want guesstimate the 24 frame without an external VF, you need to see as much as possible inside the VF, right? So you need to push more your eye into the VF 

I also found this: https://leicastoremiami.com/collections/eye-cups/products/e-clypse-eye-cup-34mm-mx-for-leica-m10?variant=40665815504

It's just an eye cup, without any kind of magnifier. Just for comfort and to avoid light coming in. Once I have chance, I'll check it out. Because I press very much my face into the VF sometimes, I ended with significant mark on my faces 😩

[kinch123]

This spectacles eye relief thing used to bug the hell out of me too. Until I woke up one day and just accepted the situation.

 Realised that I enjoy using M Cameras more than I care about OOC super precise framing (most of the time, anyway).

Big fan of Match Technical and their products, but eventually I decided to stop using the E-Clypse and just exercise caution when putting cameras up to my right spectacle lens. Specs to the bare metal means that I can see a bit of margin around the 50mm framelines with a 0.72 finder and things aren't so bad with 35mm too.

And so far haven't noticed any extra scratching on my glasses -- life is good.

[typ3656]

On 12/15/2019 at 1:05 AM, Jeff S said:

The M10 VF has a larger diameter, higher magnification and provides better eye relief for eyeglass wearers.  

Also for the OP, if you haven’t already, try getting thinner, more flexible frames, with the thinnest possible and scratch resistant lenses, so you can get closer to the VF. 

Jeff

Apologies for waking this from the dead, everyone. I had a question about this and didn't want to start a new thread. I wear specs and face the same issue - 35mm framelines are just barely tolerable.

Does the larger diameter mean the 30% increase in field of view? If so, does this mean that the edges of the viewfinder have been expanded so one can see more of what's outside of the framelines or does this also affect what's inside the framelines? In other words, does this affect a photograph's edges when taken with either a "full-frame" M6 or a full-frame M10 using the same lens?

In terms of magnification, I would think that the increase in magnification would require an increase in the field of view, otherwise one sees less at the edges and takes "paying more for less" to another level?

With an increased FoV and magnification, I would also think that the eye relief distance must be increased to compensate. So, really, there will be no apparent increase in the eye relief as this increase has, more or less, been countered by the increased FoV + magnification?

Sorry, trying to learn more about my new camera! Thanks!

[a.noctilux]

Not the best for all type of use, but I see in M10 VF as the best VF of M with M-A's.

Percentage or whatever improvments of M10 viewfinder can be appreciated only in use.

Comparing to former Leica M, Leica had done a good job increasing the opening of VF to 14mm (12mm in former M),

so centering eye to see through the VF / focussing patch is simpler.

Good thing also I appreciate LED illuminated frames, as I never see white-out focussing patch.

 

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, typ3656 said:

Apologies for waking this from the dead, everyone. I had a question about this and didn't want to start a new thread. I wear specs and face the same issue - 35mm framelines are just barely tolerable.

Does the larger diameter mean the 30% increase in field of view? If so, does this mean that the edges of the viewfinder have been expanded so one can see more of what's outside of the framelines or does this also affect what's inside the framelines? In other words, does this affect a photograph's edges when taken with either a "full-frame" M6 or a full-frame M10 using the same lens?

In terms of magnification, I would think that the increase in magnification would require an increase in the field of view, otherwise one sees less at the edges and takes "paying more for less" to another level?

With an increased FoV and magnification, I would also think that the eye relief distance must be increased to compensate. So, really, there will be no apparent increase in the eye relief as this increase has, more or less, been countered by the increased FoV + magnification?

Sorry, trying to learn more about my new camera! Thanks!

Higher magnification makes the frame lines and subject appear larger, but does not change the actual picture content, the field of view inside the frame lines, which is dictated by the lens and subject distance. It does mean, however, that less may be visible outside the frame lines.  This is the same effect as using an accessory magnifier, which makes the frame lines and focus patch appear larger, while not changing the picture (what’s included inside the frame lines) at all. The larger opening and better eye relief makes it easier for eyeglass wearers to still see near the outer edges of the VF.

Jeff

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[typ3656]

43 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Higher magnification makes the frame lines and subject appear larger, but does not change the actual picture content, the field of view inside the frame lines, which is dictated by the lens and subject distance. It does mean, however, that less may be visible outside the frame lines.  This is the same effect as using an accessory magnifier, which makes the frame lines and focus patch appear larger, while not changing the picture (what’s included inside the frame lines) at all. The larger opening and better eye relief makes it easier for eyeglass wearers to still see near the outer edges of the VF.

Jeff

Thank you, Jeff. So they made the M10’s viewfinder eyepiece physically bigger than its predecessor = the “increased field of view by 30%”?

[Jeff S]

1 minute ago, typ3656 said:

Thank you, Jeff. So they made the M10’s viewfinder eyepiece physically bigger than its predecessor = the “increased field of view by 30%”?

Larger diameter opening. There are newly sized diopters to fit, if necessary. I use a +.5 diopter, in addition to my eyeglasses, to optimize viewing with my aging eyes.

Jeff