SL2 and GPS tagging

[hotshew]

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On 2/4/2022 at 8:24 AM, BernardC said:

There's a dedicated FOTOS App forum now, which probably has more activity than an old thread on a camera-specific forum.

6 hours ago, BernardC said:

I'm not sure that you understood my point, which is that there's a forum on this site where GPS issues are actively discussed.

Thanks for clarifying your point. However, if you're equating a FOTOS App forum to the forum on this site where GPS issues are active discussed, then I still maintain my point, which is to not lose sight of this being a camera issue for the reasons I stated.

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[hirohhhh]

7 hours ago, Fang said:

I am a traveller. I  have been to Siberia, Mongolia, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan and other remote places on the silk road where there are no internet connections.  GPS functions on my SL works and I am able to recollect where some interesting shots were taken.  I can't imagine not having the GPS function on my camera hence I am not upgrading to the SL2 and hope Leica will listen to the customers and have the GPS function of the SL3.

Not upgrading is always the option. I also hope for the GPS in the future models. Good luck!

[davidmknoble]

I happen to agree with the opening of this thread.  It took me awhile to consider upgrading from the original SL because of the GPS.  Eventually, the building in IBIS and increased dynamic range gave the push to do so.  Even after that I moved from the SL2 to the Sl2-S because of dynamic range (I shoot mainly landscapes).  I miss the GPS tagging.

To compare, the M’s can use the EVF (Visio flex) and get GPS tagging and the S series still has it built in (even with the S3).  So, there are low power hardware options for GPS tagging except for the SL series.  The blue tooth and wifi connections are slow, even in the new technology, which means you are draining both the camera batter and your phone battery.  

In my opinion, it is a waste.  I’d settle for a little block to slide on my flash for the SL to get GPS in the field.  I miss it, but it ultimately did not keep me from upgrading.  That doesn’t change my opinion that pure removal without a hardware option isn’t a bad design compared to the other cameras in Leica’s stable.

[LBJ2]

For those reporting issues with SL2 Geotagging through iPhone, make sure your iPhone does not fall asleep/auto -lock during geotagging.

If the mobile phone goes into sleep mode/auto-lock you'll lose your bluetooth connection with the camera and of course Geotagging. If this happens, it can snowball into a fiddle-frustration to get everything going again. Select the ""never" auto-lock setting on the iPhone before bluetooth connecting with the SL2 to avoid iPhone sleep interruptions while Geotagging. As long as you see the blue light blinking on the back of the SL2, bluetooth will remain connected to the iPhone and you should experience a longer Geotagging session if of course you have good iPhone signal/coverage wherever you are roaming. 

The SL2 camera will fall asleep if you leave the Fotos app in Remote mode while geotagging and a ZZZ Sleep icon will appear, but as soon as you half press the shutter button on the camera it will start up again. Also, I find best consistent geotagging occurs when leaving the Fotos app in Remote mode. 

This will not solve all the problems written about in this thread, but it does seem to help toward a longer Geotagging session. 

*I tested the above in my house and maintained geotagging for about 50-55 min session before I disconnected bluetooth. Will test again next time I'm out.

Edit: Tested with iPhone 13 Pro Max iOS 15.3, SL2 v3.0 , Leica Fotos v 3.0.4

Edited February 9, 2022 by LBJ2

[hirohhhh]

8 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

For those reporting issues with SL2 Geotagging through iPhone, make sure your iPhone does not fall asleep/auto -lock during geotagging.

If the mobile phone goes into sleep mode/auto-lock you'll lose your bluetooth connection with the camera and of course Geotagging. If this happens, it can snowball into a fiddle-frustration to get everything going again. Select the ""never" auto-lock setting on the iPhone before bluetooth connecting with the SL2 to avoid iPhone sleep interruptions while Geotagging. As long as you see the blue light blinking on the back of the SL2, bluetooth will remain connected to the iPhone and you should experience a longer Geotagging session if of course you have good iPhone signal/coverage wherever you are roaming. 

The SL2 camera will fall asleep if you leave the Fotos app in Remote mode while geotagging and a ZZZ Sleep icon will appear, but as soon as you half press the shutter button on the camera it will start up again. Also, I find best consistent geotagging occurs when leaving the Fotos app in Remote mode. 

This will not solve all the problems written about in this thread, but it does seem to help toward a longer Geotagging session. 

*I tested the above in my house and maintained geotagging for about 50-55 min session before I disconnected bluetooth. Will test again next time I'm out.

Edit: Tested with iPhone 13 Pro Max iOS 15.3, SL2 v3.0 , Leica Fotos v 3.0.4

Can you imagine doing all this instead enjoying photographing?

[hotshew]

1 hour ago, hirohhhh said:

Can you imagine doing all this instead enjoying photographing?

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Also, what some people fail to see (including Leica) is that there are customers who either need or want geotagging, for whatever reason, and they may have purchased product with the expectation that said features works (dependably). Again, Leica would have better served its customers by removing the feature altogether instead providing a half-baked solution that requires their customers to spend time and energy troubleshooting. Surely, by now, Leica is aware of the issue and challenges associated with replacing integrated GPS radio in camera with a complex phone/app solution. Nevertheless,  Leica continues the trend , as with the latest $750 VisoFlex 2, which loses GPS relative to its predecessor.

Edited February 10, 2022 by hotshew

[Darrell]

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2 hours ago, hotshew said:

The two are not mutually exclusive.

Also, what some people fail to see (including Leica) is that there are customers who either need or want geotagging, for whatever reason, and they may have purchased product with the expectation that said features works (dependably). Again, Leica would have better served its customers by removing the feature altogether instead providing a half-baked solution that requires their customers to spend time and energy troubleshooting. Surely, by now, Leica is aware of the issue and challenges associated with replacing integrated GPS radio in camera with a complex phone/app solution. Nevertheless,  Leica continues the trend , as with the latest $750 VisoFlex 2, which loses GPS relative to its predecessor.

The whole point is that they DID remove the feature all together, so now we have this awkward kluge requiring a cell phone that won’t go into sleep mode, buggy app and a bluetooth connection that needs to be maintained the whole time when all we wanted was to take nice pictures with GPS coordinates in the meta-data.

[beewee]

The bluetooth connectivity issue might have limitations due to hardware or other reasons but there are workarounds.

The FOTOs app can cache the last few hours of location data so that if the camera is disconnected from the app, once it reconnects, it has previous location data that can be used to retroactively geotag the photos taken by the camera. This would of course require updates on both the camera firmware and Fotos app.

[hotshew]

1 hour ago, Darrell said:

The whole point is that they DID remove the feature all together,

This is a  philosophical discussion. I see your point, but disagree. The camera enables geotagging as per the manual and technical data sheet. How it enables the feature is a design/implementation detail. I.e., they removed the radio from the camera and replaced it with a smartphone proxy solution, but the feature still exists and the customer has every right to assume it will function dependably.

 

2 hours ago, Darrell said:

... so now we have this awkward kluge requiring a cell phone that won’t go into sleep mode, buggy app and a bluetooth connection that needs to be maintained the whole time when all we wanted was to take nice pictures with GPS coordinates in the meta-data.

I wholeheartedly agree. Leica made a fundamentally flawed design choice that cannot be undone except to add GPS radio back into future cameras models. They'll be chasing their tails forever trying to get it to work dependably (or just not care), because smartphones are a constantly evolving software platform. Even if Leica gets the geotagging via Fotos working dependably for a short while, it's just a matter of time before the feature regresses. I said this 810 days ago when I started this thread, and nothing has changed.

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[LBJ2]

4 hours ago, beewee said:

The bluetooth connectivity issue might have limitations due to hardware or other reasons but there are workarounds.

The FOTOs app can cache the last few hours of location data so that if the camera is disconnected from the app, once it reconnects, it has previous location data that can be used to retroactively geotag the photos taken by the camera. This would of course require updates on both the camera firmware and Fotos app.

I didn’t know this about the last few hours of cache and retroactively tagging. But I don’t understand completely, are you saying this is not yet available with current version, or it could be made available at some point?

[beewee]

16 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I didn’t know this about the last few hours of cache and retroactively tagging. But I don’t understand completely, are you saying this is not yet available with current version, or it could be made available at some point?

It doesn’t exist. I mean to say that it’s possible to make work arounds such as the example implementation I presented. It’s not rocket science and just needs Leica to take this feature seriously and commit some development resources to it to make it work. That or hire some real engineers that know how to do this.

I’ve worked on enough consumer electronics and GPS related development to know that it’s really not rocket science. There are ways to do it and Leica just needs to get its act together. Or maybe fire whoever is running the FOTOs development and bring in someone that actually knows what they’re doing.

Edited February 11, 2022 by beewee

[Simone_DF]

5 hours ago, beewee said:

Or maybe fire whoever is running the FOTOs development and bring in someone that actually knows what they’re doing.

This.

But most likely app development is managed through a third party vendor based in some cheap country with no direct involvment by Leica 

[LBJ2]

9 hours ago, beewee said:

It doesn’t exist. I mean to say that it’s possible to make work arounds such as the example implementation I presented. It’s not rocket science and just needs Leica to take this feature seriously and commit some development resources to it to make it work. That or hire some real engineers that know how to do this.

I’ve worked on enough consumer electronics and GPS related development to know that it’s really not rocket science. There are ways to do it and Leica just needs to get its act together. Or maybe fire whoever is running the FOTOs development and bring in someone that actually knows what they’re doing.

Thank you for the explanation. It is an interesting suggestion. Hopefully you've had a chance to submit to Leica with "how to" technical details via the Leica Fotos app Feature request. I've submitted a few myself. They have already responded to some of my submissions but not all.

Now that bluetooth technology has been introduced to the M line, ( still in beta for the M11), I am sure the Leica bluetooth geotag user community is only going to grow, particularly since they no longer provide GPS in the new Visoflex 2. I'm hoping the current focus on the M11 Fotos/Bluetooth beta will result in improvements across the board for all the Leica systems using bluetooth and the Fotos app. 

[BernardC]

On 2/10/2022 at 11:06 PM, beewee said:

It doesn’t exist. I mean to say that it’s possible to make work arounds such as the example implementation I presented. It’s not rocket science and just needs Leica to take this feature seriously and commit some development resources to it to make it work.

The problem will be on the iPhone side: I don't think that Apple (or even Android) would let a sleeping application access GPS logs. That's a huge security risk.

 

On 2/11/2022 at 4:17 AM, Simone_DF said:

But most likely app development is managed through a third party vendor based in some cheap country with no direct involvment by Leica

I'm not sure what you mean by "cheap country," and I'm afraid to ask. Leaving that aside, I agree that Leica probably uses sub-contractors, or licenses code libraries. Everybody does. Did you think that every app on your phone is a "greenfield" implementation? Of course not, it would take teams of hundreds to create any app that way, none of the basic functionality would work right, and cross-application compatibility would be a distant memory. Code is always built on-top-of existing code libraries.

From my perspective, the issue with this and every other GPS-enabled app is that iOS and Android have a history of change without prior notice. We can argue the reasons in a different forum, suffice it to say that the two usual suspects are "security" and "anti-competitive behaviour." Maybe Leica should be able to navigate those waters alone, but Facebook just had the biggest single-day value loss ever, for the same reasons (Apple changed how it was able to track users). Does Facebook not "know what they are doing?"

[Simone_DF]

19 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The problem will be on the iPhone side: I don't think that Apple (or even Android) would let a sleeping application access GPS logs. That's a huge security risk.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by "cheap country," and I'm afraid to ask. Leaving that aside, I agree that Leica probably uses sub-contractors, or licenses code libraries. Everybody does. Did you think that every app on your phone is a "greenfield" implementation? Of course not, it would take teams of hundreds to create any app that way, none of the basic functionality would work right, and cross-application compatibility would be a distant memory. Code is always built on-top-of existing code libraries.

From my perspective, the issue with this and every other GPS-enabled app is that iOS and Android have a history of change without prior notice. We can argue the reasons in a different forum, suffice it to say that the two usual suspects are "security" and "anti-competitive behaviour." Maybe Leica should be able to navigate those waters alone, but Facebook just had the biggest single-day value loss ever, for the same reasons (Apple changed how it was able to track users). Does Facebook not "know what they are doing?"

Yes, Apple approves letting a sleeping application access GPS logs. Copypasting from the official Apple website:

"When you allow an app to use your location in the background, your device will remind you from time to time that an app is using your location, and will display those locations on a map. You'll also be asked if you want to continue to allow the app to use your location in the background."

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https://support.apple.com/en-ie/HT203033

 

You can also buy a GPS tracking app that will keep tagging your location. Yes, it works even when sleeping:

https://apps.apple.com/us/app/geotag-photos-pro-2/id1008694552

Then import everything and sync it via Lightroom. This is probably the easiest workaround for Leica users at the moment.

FYI my newly acquired Ricoh GRIII has perfectly working GPS tagging through the Ricoh app on iOS. It was the same when I had a Sony, GPS was reliable. So we can safely remove iOS / Apple out of the equation, unless the Japanese brands know some super duper magick trick that the Germans do not.

The fault is either with the SL2 or with the Leica app, or with a combination of both.

[LBJ2]

On 2/9/2022 at 9:52 PM, hirohhhh said:

Can you imagine doing all this instead enjoying photographing?

Took me some time to pin it down. I am also aware any new firmware updates from mobile phone, bluetooth or camera can enhance or break the process. I've been living bluetooth issues for years with my other devices.

But I also tend to spend a lot of time learning and practicing with the cameras I own with the goal to figure out how I can get the camera to do what I want/need it to do. Of all the cameras I've owned no matter how much the price, they all require on-going effort/practice on my part to figure out what works as advertised and what does not and then the work-arounds. Adding mobile phone app interoperability with cameras has been a long struggle for all the manufacturers. Lots of multi brand lengthy complaint threads all over the internet for years. 

It is what it is. I lived many years of Sony's app never being able to transfer RAW files from camera to mobile. Recently Sony finally added this feature to their flagship A1 model but it took some time for Apple to support Sony A1 files RAW files to complete the process ( never a problem with Sony jpegs). Leica FOTOS has been able to transfer DNG to mobile from day-one 🤷🏻‍♂️

[Simone_DF]

Guys, I really don't know on which planet you live, but both Android and iOS issue pre-release version of their upcoming updates aimed at developers, along with extensive documentation about the changes. The scope of these pre-release is to give developers enough time to adapt their code to potential disruptive changes, if any.

You can even install these updates yourselves on your mobile, all you need is to register as a developer, for the Dev version, or to register as a normal customer if you prefer to install the more stable Public Beta version.

On average these pre-release updates are issued 3 months before the general release. If in 3 months a developer team can't iron out issues, then the problem lies elsewhere, not with Apple or Google, because other apps seems to be perfectly fine. Usually it's a good mix of budget (aka not enough manpower) or incompetence.

For example here's a documentation page regarding Apple's CoreLocation, the APIs used for location tracking:

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corelocation?changes=latest_minor

I've enabled the diffing feature on the page, and if you look at the recent changes, you'll see they are very small, mostly aimed at adding privacy authorization prompts and at expanding the features, without touching the rest. Leica app never worked from day 1, blaming operating system changes is, in my opinion, daft.

--

Some app that use GPS caching to track your location even when the app is in the background: Strava, Pokemon Go, Philips Hue, IFTTT, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all home automation apps, all navigation apps like Google Maps, some airport apps, weather apps, travel apps, hiking apps, you name it. 

Many of the above also interact with your bluetooth in one way or another. Chipolo, Tile, Cube Pro, Fitbit, all devices that use geofencing, and more.

All of these do work really well in most cases. Why? Because it's part of their core business. But apps are not part of the core business of camera manufacturers. In other words, they don't really give a crap, and it shows. Sony's app works ok, but its interface seems designed in the early '90s and it's a pain to operate. Ricoh's app works well for me, but it lacks features and its UI is terrible as well. Leica's has a nicely designed interface, but functionality wise it's the worst of the lot. It is what it is, and I doubt we'll see significant changes unless camera companies are willing to invest more money into the matter, and with camera sales going down year after year, I don't really see this happening.

[beewee]

6 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Guys, I really don't know on which planet you live, but both Android and iOS issue pre-release version of their upcoming updates aimed at developers, along with extensive documentation about the changes. The scope of these pre-release is to give developers enough time to adapt their code to potential disruptive changes, if any.

You can even install these updates yourselves on your mobile, all you need is to register as a developer, for the Dev version, or to register as a normal customer if you prefer to install the more stable Public Beta version.

On average these pre-release updates are issued 3 months before the general release. If in 3 months a developer team can't iron out issues, then the problem lies elsewhere, not with Apple or Google, because other apps seems to be perfectly fine. Usually it's a good mix of budget (aka not enough manpower) or incompetence.

For example here's a documentation page regarding Apple's CoreLocation, the APIs used for location tracking:

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/corelocation?changes=latest_minor

I've enabled the diffing feature on the page, and if you look at the recent changes, you'll see they are very small, mostly aimed at adding privacy authorization prompts and at expanding the features, without touching the rest. Leica app never worked from day 1, blaming operating system changes is, in my opinion, daft.

--

Some app that use GPS caching to track your location even when the app is in the background: Strava, Pokemon Go, Philips Hue, IFTTT, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all home automation apps, all navigation apps like Google Maps, some airport apps, weather apps, travel apps, hiking apps, you name it. 

Many of the above also interact with your bluetooth in one way or another. Chipolo, Tile, Cube Pro, Fitbit, all devices that use geofencing, and more.

All of these do work really well in most cases. Why? Because it's part of their core business. But apps are not part of the core business of camera manufacturers. In other words, they don't really give a crap, and it shows. Sony's app works ok, but its interface seems designed in the early '90s and it's a pain to operate. Ricoh's app works well for me, but it lacks features and its UI is terrible as well. Leica's has a nicely designed interface, but functionality wise it's the worst of the lot. It is what it is, and I doubt we'll see significant changes unless camera companies are willing to invest more money into the matter, and with camera sales going down year after year, I don't really see this happening.

As far as I can tell, the root cause of the problem is not the corelocation API, at least on iOS.

The problem is more the bluetooth connection between the phone and camera. When the camera goes on standby, bluetooth connectivity is lost. When the camera is woken up from standby, it tries to reconnect to the phone but this is very hit and miss. From what I gather, it tends to be most problematic when the phone has the screen turned off. Otherwise, if you unlock the phone and reopen the Fotos app, it can re-establish the bluetooth connection in the same amount of time that it normally takes when the camera is turned on - which is to say not quick but it does reconnect. In contrast, when the phone is locked, the bluetooth scanning rate is reduced on the phone and from what I can tell it’s probably on the order of once every 1min after an extended period of inactivity on the phone. Because of this, it can miss the attempt from the camera to reconnect because the camera’s bluetooth radio is not operating continuously when it tries to reconnect. It can try many times in one minute but it’s not continuous so it’s possible that the phone misses the camera’s attempt to reestablish the connection.

What Leica needs to do to resolve the bluetooth connection issue is to at least give the user an ability to leave the BLE connection on continuously even when the camera is off, at least for a certain duration (i.e. 1-4 hours would be reasonable) even if the camera is off so that the camera stays connected to the phone and Fotos app.

All this being said, the core issue at hand is that Leica is not putting the needed resources into solving the problem and make an advertised function work reliably. Being a European company, I would have thought that there would be stricter rules that favor consumers where companies making products that fail to live up to their claims would be at risk for legal action. Maybe that is what is needed to light a fire under some product manager’s seat to get them to act.

Edited February 20, 2022 by beewee

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[hotshew]

6 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Guys, I really don't know on which planet you live, but both Android and iOS issue pre-release version of their upcoming updates aimed at developers, along with extensive documentation about the changes. The scope of these pre-release is to give developers enough time to adapt their code to potential disruptive changes, if any. ... On average these pre-release updates are issued 3 months before the general release. If in 3 months a developer team can't iron out issues, then the problem lies elsewhere, not with Apple or Google, because other apps seems to be perfectly fine. Usually it's a good mix of budget (aka not enough manpower) or incompetence.

Spoken like an SDE living in an ivory tower. OS vendors break apps all the time despite their best intentions by documenting breaking changes and rolling out developer previews. Even small changes can break things in very unexpected ways -- happens all the time. Getting an app out, like Fotos, is relatively easy but keeping it current takes serious commitment ($$$).

7 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Some app that use GPS caching to track your location even when the app is in the background: Strava, Pokemon Go, Philips Hue, IFTTT, Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, all home automation apps, all navigation apps like Google Maps, some airport apps, weather apps, travel apps, hiking apps, you name it. 

Unlike app examples listed, Fotos must proxy location to camera in real-time to be effective -- much more complex than running in background and polling location services at regular intervals for local app consumption only.

50 minutes ago, beewee said:

All this being said, the core issue at hand is that Leica is not putting the needed resources into solving the problem and make an advertised function work reliably.

I suspect Leica is aware of the geotagging issue and are working on it, but they'll be chasing their tails for as long as they're married to the idea of proxying via Fotos instead of putting a dedicated GPS receiver back into their cameras. My guess is the majority of engineers at Leica know the Fotos approach is a terrible design choice, but the emperor has no cloths, and we'll need to wait for a leadership change before can expect a reversal.

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, beewee said:

As far as I can tell, the root cause of the problem is not the corelocation API, at least on iOS.

The problem is more the bluetooth connection between the phone and camera.

Yes, agree on this. But some diehard Leica sycophants prefer to gaslight others and blame third party companies for Leica's shortcomings.