SL3 with 24 megapixels for low-light

[Chaemono]

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I think Leica should make a low-light version with 24 MPx.  These high res FF cameras are no good for low-light.  The α7R III/IV do better than the SL2 there but have other drawbacks when it comes to DR and ‘push-ability’ of files in high contrast scenes (see thread on the SL2’s DR https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/303396-leica-sl2-dynamic-range/#comments.  The SL2 does better in low light than the S1R but can’t match the performance of the 24 MPx cameras like the α7 III, the S1, and the Sigma fp.  The good news is, SL2 users can revert to the S1 for low-light situations but it’s not as much fun to shoot.

 

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[Mr.Q]

That's why I was excited when I read the (fake) news that the SL2 would come with a 36MP PDAF sensor. I believe that to be a sweet spot for FF sensors just like 24MP is for APS-C and 50MP for MF.

[ropo54]

9 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

I think Leica should make a low-light version with 24 MPx.  These high res FF cameras are no good for low-light.  The α7R III/IV do better than the SL2 there but have other drawbacks when it comes to DR and ‘push-ability’ of files in high contrast scenes (see thread on the SL2’s DR https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/303396-leica-sl2-dynamic-range/#comments.  The SL2 does better in low light than the S1R but can’t match the performance of the 24 MPx cameras like the α7 III, the S1, and the Sigma fp.  The good news is, SL2 users can revert to the S1 for low-light situations but it’s not as much fun to shoot.

 

But, a question (from ignorance!):  Is the low light limitation not offset by IBIS, so that lower ISOs may be used in light challenging situations? Rob

Edited November 20, 2019 by ropo54

[Mr.Q]

Somewhat, as you still need to crank up the ISO if 1) the shot requires more DOF, or 2) you are shooting non-static subjects (ie people, sports, wildlife, cityscapes, landscapes with trees, etc)

[Chaemono]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb ropo54:

But, a question (from ignorance!):  Is the low light limitation not offset by IBIS, so that lower ISOs may be used in light challenging situations? Rob

Yes and no, Rob.  It’s not the high ISO noise of the SL2 that’s the issue.  It has a bit more noise than the BSI high res α7R III. The issue is the ability to capture shadow details (I mean, those that can be recovered in post) when there is very little light to begin with, at any ISO.  And one shouldn’t confuse this with sufficiently lighted high contrast scenes that I, for example, intentionally underexposed in my SL2 DR thread.  Recoverability of ‘shadow details’ or rather details in dark areas of low-light scenes (meaning there’s hardly any light there) are a bit of a challenge for the SL2, more of a challenge for the S1R, a breeze for the S1, Sigma fp, and α7 III. One has to shoot the S1 side by side to see what I mean. 

vor 38 Minuten schrieb Mr.Q:

That's why I was excited when I read the (fake) news that the SL2 would come with a 36MP PDAF sensor.

Leica will never go with PDAF because PDAF banding or striping limits the ‘push-ability’ of the files and, therefore, affects DR and IQ.  No PDAF for me, please. 

[Mr.Q]

12 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Leica will never go with PDAF because PDAF banding or striping limits the ‘push-ability’ of the files and, therefore, affects DR and IQ.  No PDAF for me, please. 

Makes sense, I never push my files that far and I have yet to see them in my images, but everyone's needs are different.

[sillbeers15]

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Don’t you agree that the S1 is a cheap and good secondary body to complement our SL2 for low light and OCF photography?

 

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Minute schrieb sillbeers15:

Don’t you agree that the S1 is a cheap and good secondary body to complement our SL2 for low light and OCF photography?

 

Yes, totally, IQ-wise and functionality-wise.  But the SL2 is so much more fun to shoot. 

[Mr.Q]

The Sigma FP is a bit more interesting imo. That thing is so small you can mount it on the hot shoe of the SL2.

[Bob Andersson]

3 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

The Sigma FP is a bit more interesting imo. That thing is so small you can mount it on the hot shoe of the SL2.

There's a challenge for the Photoshoppers if ever I saw one. 🤣

[jaapv]

What happened to the idea of pixel binning? That would turn the SL2 into a 16MP high-ISO camera.

[Stuart Richardson]

One of the stated goals of the L mount alliance was to increase the customer choice for special applications. While I am not minimizing your request, it seems like this specific concern would be addressed in that way. There are already three L mount 24mp bodies, two of them with the latest generation sensors, the other, the SL, still being very competent. Unlike Sony, I think Leica does not have the resources or desire to make several different SL versions to service each niche. They seem to go all in with one body and do the best they can. They may also be a bit burned by the S system, where they went down that road of not changing resolution for 10 years in favor of high iso, and eventually winding up in a place where many customers felt left behind. I know I felt that way. Personally, I have not felt particularly constrained by dynamic range since around the time of the M8, though I know that digital cameras keep getting better and better. Maybe it's just that I learned on slide film? If you get it right in camera, generally you do not need these corrections. I recently compared the S1 to the SL by photographing a sunlit wall with a room in deep shadow behind it. Lifting the shadows +100 and taking the highlights down -100 gave me a photo that looked a little better on the S1...less noise and more highlight gradation, but both photos looked absolutely terrible because their tonal balance had been destroyed. In any case, I think what you are looking for is an important feature of cameras, but it seems like it is one aspect of sensor quality which is perhaps not as highly valued by the market as noise levels in a properly exposed photo at high ISO or in resolution. 

[hillavoider]

I think leica needs to at least get some kind of working auto focus before it embarks on any fancy low light or vegan snake skin load of garbage in the near future

Edited November 20, 2019 by hillavoider

[Daniel81]

1. I have a Nikon 810 and its 36 MP . . . I have found that is perfect size -  not too little and not too much in terms of computing, workflow, file management, resolution.

[Tailwagger]

All these extra MP are like beer and teenagers. At first it's, more, more, more. But eventually, we all learn the pain of the overdoing it.   

[scott kirkpatrick]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

What happened to the idea of pixel binning? That would turn the SL2 into a 16MP high-ISO camera.

Why 16? Combining every four pixels in a single shot would give one fourth the original number of pixels (12 MPx) in a regular square array or 1/2 the original pixels (24 MPx) in a n arrangement that looks like this:

x  o  x  o

o  x  o  x

and each pixel located at an "x" would have 14 bits of R, 16 bits of G and 14 bits of B color data associated with it.  That should make a lovely image with all of the resolution of the original file.  Unfortunately, it wouldn't be smaller than the original 48 MPx DNG file.  And the TIFF 6.0 basic specification on which DNG is based doesn't seem to allow such a layout, so essentially no software will render it. (This is the problem that Foveon and Fuji X-Trans have faced.)  The transforms to reduce this data and turn it into something that can easily be rendered are available in software for manipulating JPEGs, which are a lossy format transferring the results in the Fourier-transformed (spatial frequency) space, where interpolation and  rotations are easy linear operations.  So the most likely way to get good 24 MPx output is to save a big JPEG and expose very carefully...

[jaapv]

I lifted the figure off the Internet -and misread too . Even so, in dark circumstances 12 MP is ample as well.

[Chaemono]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb jaapv:

I lifted the figure off the Internet -and misread too . Even so, in dark circumstances 12 MP is ample as well.

I’m not sure if it can be done with a firmware update for the SL2 and its current sensor.  To be effective, pixel binning needs to be implemented in-camera, IMO.  In post, it reduces noise but doesn’t address the issue of the inability of tiny pixels to capture enough light in low-light situations.

In any case, the answer to the thread ‘what to pair the SL2 with’ is clearly, the S1. 😁

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

Yes, it works optimally in camera, so I cannot understand why a camera should have a high-res mode and not a low-res high ISO mode. Possibly the current preoccupation with high MP count. 

[sillbeers15]

We all agree that high resolution image is not all rosy and solution to better camera user wise, but I’m sure ‘high resolution’ sells camera! 

Furthermore camera designers do not get the freedom to select any image sensor but from a selected range.

Perhaps a 24 to 36MPx sensor may be more ideal for producing an ideal digital camera at this day and age. But unless there are enough buyers specifically looking to buy such a camera, it is a risky business for the camera maker.