"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[Chaemono]

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vor 55 Minuten schrieb adan:

...and phase-detect AF.

[...] I have a Sony "bridge" RX10iv to get its "senior-portable 600mm f/4" reach, and the BSI-stacked-PDAF is pretty amazing (almost makes an EVF tolerable).

I expect Leica will get such tech for the SL(x) [...] - eventually.

The speed of the RX10iv with the image sensor working together with DRAM and the processor must be amazing.  I hope that “eventually” will be rather soon.  It ain’t 47 MPx in the SL2.  It has a 48ish MPx sensor.  But I don’t know whether it’s a stacked BSI sensor or some lame-o modification of the Q2/S1R sensor which has actually 50 MPx.

[Mr.Q]

9 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Granted Sony Alpha 9 II has the best in class action oriented AF. The A9I/II were created for that in mind and therefore kept optimised at 24MPx image sensor giving priority over AF performance. So it suits sports & nature shooters but not all applications.

For Leica SL users, we ask for a good and reliable AF system that can provide the SL2 @ 47MPx to be a good all round mirrorless camera to support the superb SL lenses which other makes lack.

I agree that there's no perfect camera. The A9 certainly has a larger envelope than any camera I've ever owned though.

For me, the SL2 competes with my X1D II which I use mainly for travel photography and landscapes. To me it's all about the size-to-IQ ratio. The X1D resides as the king in that department and I'm interested to see if the 47MP SL2 can shake things up with the adaptability of M lenses. The SL lenses are great but given their size it's really splitting hairs with the best lenses from other manufacturers. 

[sillbeers15]

23 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

I agree that there's no perfect camera. The A9 certainly has a larger envelope than any camera I've ever owned though.

For me, the SL2 competes with my X1D II which I use mainly for travel photography and landscapes. To me it's all about the size-to-IQ ratio. The X1D resides as the king in that department and I'm interested to see if the 47MP SL2 can shake things up with the adaptability of M lenses. The SL lenses are great but given their size it's really splitting hairs with the best lenses from other manufacturers. 

I think I have to agree to dis agree with you. While you look for specific tools / system for specific application ( you mentioned Sony A9 for nature and X1D for landscape application) is what I’ve specifically avoided. 

I’m a hobbyist and I do not even want to keep another older body when I replace it (I sold my SL 3 months ago to wait for SL2 release). Also if you are a familiar user of Leica M lenses and SL lenses you will certainly see that the SL lenses are clearly a level better than the M lenses. Compare the SL75 against M75, who has given feedback that the M is more superior? How many users have praised the SL75 /90? Many indeed. 

I really think it is irrelevant to compare SL and SL2 to A9 or X1D. I specifically avoided those cameras despite their individual strength as I know what I want.

[Mr.Q]

14 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

I think I have to agree to dis agree with you. While you look for specific tools / system for specific application ( you mentioned Sony A9 for nature and X1D for landscape application) is what I’ve specifically avoided. 

I’m a hobbyist and I do not even want to keep another older body when I replace it (I sold my SL 3 months ago to wait for SL2 release). Also if you are a familiar user of Leica M lenses and SL lenses you will certainly see that the SL lenses are clearly a level better than the M lenses. Compare the SL75 against M75, who has given feedback that the M is more superior? How many users have praised the SL75 /90? Many indeed. 

I really think it is irrelevant to compare SL and SL2 to A9 or X1D. I specifically avoided those cameras despite their individual strength as I know what I want.

Well it seems you are looking for the jack of all trades, and in that case, I agree that the SL2 is a good compromise. It seems however, that many folks here shoot with multiple systems and that's where the choice becomes more complicated. It's not a case of A vs B, but more of a A+B vs A+C or even A+B+C vs A+C+D, and depending on where the SL2 fits into that formula the desired feature set diversifies.

I'd rather not get into a debate of M vs SL lenses, but how exactly are the SL lenses superior to the M lenses and how do they impact your photography?  I do see that they perform fractionally better along the edges at wider apertures, but closed down there is no discernable difference between all modern Leica lenses. Fractionally better corners at F2 does not offset the extra 400 gram weight penalty I'd pay for each focal length. And with a bag full of primes (21 + 28 + 50 + 75 + 90) that weight sure does add up. YMMV.

[sillbeers15]

16 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

 

I'd rather not get into a debate of M vs SL lenses, but how exactly are the SL lenses superior to the M lenses and how do they impact your photography?  I do see that they perform fractionally better along the edges at wider apertures, but closed down there is no discernable difference between all modern Leica lenses. Fractionally better corners at F2 does not offset the extra 400 gram weight penalty I'd pay for each focal length. And with a bag full of primes (21 + 28 + 50 + 75 + 90) that weight sure does add up. YMMV.

I do agree that some of the M lenses are compact jewel. Say the M35 Lux ASPH. But if you look at others such as the Noctilux 0.95 & M21 Lux are heavy and by no means compact (by the way I have all these lenses and am speaking of my true experience).

The beauty of SL lenses are not about fully open. The SL16-35 has unreal micro  constrast, almost complete resistance to flare. Almost no distortion and sharp from corner to corner. The M WATE is truly compact and lovely by optically no match for SL16-35. If you own it and used it. I would not part with it. The M WATE is no poor performer either and It is on my list to acquire for my M10. I certainly will not use it on my SL/2 now that I have the 16-35.

I love my M10 + M lenses. But my experience make me want the SL2 as the SL lenses are just that good. I know many compliant about the SL90-280 for bulk and weight. I have not seen a parallel tele-zoom from Leica or any make comparable in IQ. The sharpness, the contrast is certainly one of class act for lenses in this range. Bulk& weight? I shoot 100% handheld with it. Now SL2 comes with IBIS and the lens has stabalizer. I look forward to using it on SL2.

It were the Lenses that make me stay with Leica. And it is the SL lenses that make me anticipate for the new SL2.

 

[Mr.Q]

I have the WATE and it's a stellar performer at F8 but mustache distortion is rather severe at all apertures. So yeah, technically it's probably a step behind the 16-35 SL. However, your description of the SL 16-35 sounds remarkably similar to what my 21 SEM and 28 Elmarit can achieve. I've yet to see a wide lens that behaves better than the 21 SEM, save for maybe the 21 Loxia in e-mount. I have doubts that a zoom can be better than a reference level prime.

But yeah, we can agree to disagree because it seems you don't mind carrying big and heavy cameras. Like I said, it's all about the size-to-IQ ratio for me. Otherwise, I'd be hauling around a Phase One or GFX 100 which would smoke any of the systems that we're discussing here.

[sillbeers15]

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20 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

I have the WATE and it's a stellar performer at F8 but mustache distortion is rather severe at all apertures. So yeah, technically it's probably a step behind the 16-35 SL. However, your description of the SL 16-35 sounds remarkably similar to what my 21 SEM and 28 Elmarit can achieve. I've yet to see a wide lens that behaves better than the 21 SEM, save for maybe the 21 Loxia in e-mount. I have doubts that a zoom can be better than a reference level prime.

But yeah, we can agree to disagree because it seems you don't mind carrying big and heavy cameras. Like I said, it's all about the size-to-IQ ratio for me. Otherwise, I'd be hauling around a Phase One or GFX 100 which would smoke any of the systems that we're discussing here.

M21SEM. The lens I adore and regraded selling. It was so good that I thought a M21lux must even be better. I was wrong. Although M21lux cost 3 times more but I still think the M21SEM gives me sharper pics at F8 or smaller aperture.

But I have to disagree on Phase One or MF cameras being better. While they are great for studio, commercials, landscape ( provided you have s donkey to carry your gear), they generally are not flexible to be carried around for handheld shooting and generally range of lenses are even less. I do agree when for the right application, the IQ performance excels.

I was at the point of considering using my M10 for landscape application. Now with SL16-35 and a 47MPx, I’m glad I did not. The M camera hand an issue of leaking light at the mount area. I found out while using my M240 for long exposures. The stop gap measure was to use a thick hair band ( black) to cover the mount area.

[Chaemono]

Does anyone have any idea what Leica could mean by “new milestone” in the SL2 announcement invitations that were sent out?

[helged]

1 minute ago, Chaemono said:

Does anyone have any idea what Leica could mean by “new milestone” in the SL2 announcement invitations that were sent out?

Sensor stabilisation (?).

[frame-it]

11 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Does anyone have any idea what Leica could mean by “new milestone” in the SL2 announcement invitations that were sent out?

how to charge much much more for an S1R in an old body ?

[sillbeers15]

9 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Does anyone have any idea what Leica could mean by “new milestone” in the SL2 announcement invitations that were sent out?

Hahaa,...marketing jagon. 

I keep my fingers crossed that whatever the ‘new milestone’ means, it translates to real significant difference comparing to S1R.

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb helged:

Sensor stabilisation (?).

Yes, but others have this already.  Why call it “New Leica Milestone.”  It must imply an industry first. 

[sillbeers15]

I think it has got to do with:

1.  Maestro III Processor;

2.  Object Detection AF

[PeterGA]

46 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

M21SEM. The lens I adore and regraded selling. It was so good that I thought a M21lux must even be better. I was wrong. Although M21lux cost 3 times more but I still think the M21SEM gives me sharper pics at F8 or smaller aperture.

But I have to disagree on Phase One or MF cameras being better. While they are great for studio, commercials, landscape ( provided you have s donkey to carry your gear), they generally are not flexible to be carried around for handheld shooting and generally range of lenses are even less. I do agree when for the right application, the IQ performance excels.

I was at the point of considering using my M10 for landscape application. Now with SL16-35 and a 47MPx, I’m glad I did not. The M camera hand an issue of leaking light at the mount area. I found out while using my M240 for long exposures. The stop gap measure was to use a thick hair band ( black) to cover the mount area.

My Fuji GFX100 is no heavier than my SL - and my XID (when I had it) was even lighter. 35mm format cameras have very little if any advantage in weight 'cost' over 50 or 100MP larger chipped cameras from Fuji or Hasselblad X series cameras - there isn't much difference in weight between high quality 35mm lenses and same quality (or better) MF lenses these days. Of course the exception is M lenses and as SL users we are fortunate to able to mount an M lens on the front and save significant weight if we are happy with just manual focusing - I can do the same with my Fuji GFX - and corect for some vignetting down to 50mm focal lengths.

 

[nicci78]

46 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Does anyone have any idea what Leica could mean by “new milestone” in the SL2 announcement invitations that were sent out?

Several small novelties make it a new milestone for Leica. Not for the rest of the industry. 
 

One thing should bother SL fans. We are going from 13 direct access functions to only 9. Although 6 of them can be quickly change for another one. À la CL and Q2. 
The missing left screen row of button is problematic. Top & front buttons are not easily accessible. 
 

If you read french, just take a look at Summilux.net As some early testers (not me) split out most of surprises. 😅

You will learn that Astro & video people will be pleased 

Edited October 28, 2019 by nicci78

[nicci78]

Think about this image from Nikon D5300 when you will try the SL2 for the first time 😉 

this new milestone by the way. 😌 at least for Leica 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[sillbeers15]

8 minutes ago, PeterGA said:

My Fuji GFX100 is no heavier than my SL - and my XID (when I had it) was even lighter. 35mm format cameras have very little if any advantage in weight 'cost' over 50 or 100MP larger chipped cameras from Fuji or Hasselblad X series cameras - there isn't much difference in weight between high quality 35mm lenses and same quality (or better) MF lenses these days. Of course the exception is M lenses and as SL users we are fortunate to able to mount an M lens on the front and save significant weight if we are happy with just manual focusing - I can do the same with my Fuji GFX - and corect for some vignetting down to 50mm focal lengths.

 

Your argument generalised FF vs MF comparison by using examples of two MF lightweight bodies. What about the rest of the MF bodies.

Besides it is not just about weight. It is flexibility including the choice of lenses available for different photography application.

[LocalHero1953]

9 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Several small novelties make it a new milestone for Leica. Not for the rest of the industry. 
 

One thing should bother SL fans. We are going from 13 direct access functions to only 9. Although 6 of them can be quickly change for another one. À la CL and Q2. 
The missing left screen row of button is problematic. Top & front buttons are not easily accessible. 
 

If you read french, just take a look at Summilux.net As some early testers (not me) split out most of surprises. 😅

You will learn that Astro & video people will be pleased 

At launch, I carefully assigned functions to all the buttons of the SL, because they were there. As time has gone on, I have reduced the number of buttons I actually use. Now I don't use any except the rear four. The front button I never touch at all, and the other two have nothing special assigned to them. I would be happy with the four on the back (tidy symmetry) and find the buttons on the CL insufficient. I would rather have more User Profiles than buttons.

[nicci78]

6 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

At launch, I carefully assigned functions to all the buttons of the SL, because they were there. As time has gone on, I have reduced the number of buttons I actually use. Now I don't use any except the rear four. The front button I never touch at all, and the other two have nothing special assigned to them. I would be happy with the four on the back (tidy symmetry) and find the buttons on the CL insufficient. I would rather have more User Profiles than buttons.

That's why Leica axed the most useful 4 buttons around the screen 😅 And let you deal with the tiny top and front buttons. Go figure. 🤔

SL2 works like the CL and Q2 with 4 extra functions button. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[sillbeers15]

8 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

That's why Leica axed the most useful 4 buttons around the screen 😅 And let you deal with the tiny top and front buttons. Go figure. 🤔

SL2 works like the CL and Q2 with 4 extra functions button. 

Is this a deal breaker?