"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[Distagon]

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1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Yes. It probably means that the SL2 includes a ToF sensor for better low light AF. 

"The time-of-flight auto-focusing (ToFAF) system actively radiates a special light traveling back to the sensor after being reflecting by an object...

I’m not sure what to think of this.

It is, effectively, a LIDAR system to establish a depth map of the image field.

Huawei use this in smartphones to simulate bokeh in software.  The iPhone X uses a similar system for their face recognition security feature.

All this raises is questions, all of which are speculations upon speculations:

1. Range.  Given limited power, any TOFAF feature can only be useful in the near field.  How close must the “object” be?

2. Spatial resolution.  If the system establishes a depth map of the image field with a fixed grid of depth samples, does it have sufficient lateral spatial resolution to nail focus precisely where needed?

3. Accuracy.  In principle a laser should be able to provide wavelength-level range accuracy, but other features of system design such as signal encoding may limit the range accuracy at a given point.  Are these systems accurate enough to nail focus for an optical lens at f/1.4?

4. Confounding media.  Is the system able to operate through distorting or reflective media, such as a glass window?  Is it confounded by poor reflectivity?  (Though who really takes photos of a black cat at night?!)

IF a high-end camera system where to use TOFAF, there are clearly some important design tradeoffs.  If it is the case, it would be interesting to see what performance is possible in practice and how that impacts real photography.

[Chaemono]

vor 55 Minuten schrieb Luca:

very interesting and thank you for your detailed explanation!

Time of Flight Autofocus is pretty new and is just starting to gain traction. This probably explains partly why Leica took so long to release the SL2.

Panasonic is working on ToFAF, too, of course: https://www.digitalcameraworld.com/news/panasonic-develops-time-of-flight-camera-sensor-for-a-perfect-autofocus-system

And in the link here are a couple of clips on how ToFAF works for video: https://www.eoshd.com/2019/07/exclusive-blackmagic-pocket-cinema-camera-4k-gets-time-of-flight-autofocus-with-prototype-add-on/. Needless to say, the faster the processor the better the technology will work. Hence, Maestro III in the SL2. 😀

[bags27]

I'd imagine that ToFAF would be of great value in studio conditions. 

[Chaemono]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb bags27:

I'd imagine that ToFAF would be of great value in studio conditions. 

Ideally, it needs to be paired with PDAF IMO. Let’s see if Leica did this with the SL2. Since we know it has IBIS, AF performance and DR of the sensor are the two things I’m most anxious about now. 

Edited October 26, 2019 by Chaemono

[sillbeers15]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Ideally, it needs to be paired with PDAF IMO. Let’s see if Leica did this with the SL2. Since we know it has IBIS, AF performance and DR of the sensor are the two things I’m most anxious about now. 

+1

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Ideally, it needs to be paired with PDAF IMO. Let’s see if Leica did this with the SL2. Since we know it has IBIS, AF performance and DR of the sensor are the two things I’m most anxious about now. 

But remember, if it has 47 MP, you’re out.

 

Jeff

[Chaemono]

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vor 2 Stunden schrieb Jeff S:

But remember, if it has 47 MP, you’re out.

 

Jeff

Don’t worry, it’s 48ish.  47 is so 2018. 😁

Edited October 27, 2019 by Chaemono

[thighslapper]

12 hours ago, Luca said:

''Object Detection AF'' ?? does anyone has any clue on this ?

thanks

Sounds like face/eye/human/animal detection as in most other new mirrorless cameras to me.

[Chaemono]

It’s ToFAF. I can’t say how I know. “face/eye/human/animal detection as in most other new mirrorless cameras...” wouldn’t  be leaked as a spec. 😁

[Chaemono]

BTW, Leica cooperates with one of the leading companies for 3D image sensors and 3D cameras based on the ToF principle: https://pmdtec.com/html/pdf/press_release/ENG_Leica_pmd_20190226.pdf.

[sillbeers15]

Sony also mentioned ‘object detection’ as an AI enabler in the new A9II. Only description is that it enables the Sony A9II’s AF tracking to be more accurate.

There is also mention that the AF calculation in A9II is 60 times per Sec to support AF tracking. I am confident that a new Maestro III processor in SL2 means higher processing capacity or/and faster AF calculations translating to stable and consistent AF tracking capability.

All in all the specs of the SL2 is pointing in the right directions for a capable 47MPx pro grade mirrorless body. If it truly materialises, Leica needs to produce more SL telephoto lenses to support the SL system.

[helged]

15 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

... Leica needs to produce more SL telephoto lenses to support the SL system.

+1. Or perhaps, "Leica needs to produce at least one SL telephoto lens..." 😉, since 280mm is simply too short to be a full-blown tele lens. In my view. Particularly without an extender. That being said, I am (much) more optimistic about a 500mm or 600mm lens from Sigma. In 2020?

[Chaemono]

vor 43 Minuten schrieb sillbeers15:

Sony also mentioned ‘object detection’ as an AI enabler in the new A9II. Only description is that it enables the Sony A9II’s AF tracking to be more accurate.

There is also mention that the AF calculation in A9II is 60 times per Sec to support AF tracking. I am confident that a new Maestro III processor in SL2 means higher processing capacity or/and faster AF calculations translating to stable and consistent AF tracking capability.

All in all the specs of the SL2 is pointing in the right directions for a capable 47MPx pro grade mirrorless body. If it truly materialises, Leica needs to produce more SL telephoto lenses to support the SL system.

Sony α(Sony insists on calling it “Alpha”)9 I/II has the best AF system ever.  And the reason is that α9 II uses a high-speed stacked design image sensor with built-in DRAM that temporarily stores large-volume data in the integral memory for overall 20 times faster readout speed.  It’s the combination of this CMOS sensor AND the enhanced BIONZ X image-processing engine that allows for tracking of fast moving objects with AI image recognition.

Leica can utilize ToFAF this and AI that with a Maestro III processor as much as they want.  Without PDAF and built-in DRAM on a stacked 48ish MPx sensor, the SL2’ AF performance will lag the α9 II’s by a mile.  Simply put, that 47 MPx sensor ain’t gonna cut it. It creates a huge amount of data, almost twice as much as the 24 MPx α9 II sensor which buffers it. It’s not that hard to understand. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Chaemono

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Sony α(Sony insists on calling it “Alpha”)9 I/II has the best AF system ever.

Ironically, Sony is considered by cinema shooters to have terrible AF. Part of what makes it unusable for cine is what stills shooters like: it's jerky, constantly correcting and hunting.

You hear the other side of that story in Panasonic S1 reviews: video shooters think it has the best AF of any full-frame camera, but stills shooters don't like it.

I don't know why, but it seems like you can design a mirrorless AF system to work super-fast, or to be accurate and smooth. Canon has the best compromise between those two extremes right now. Maybe future generations of sensors and software will bridge that gap, but it hasn't happened yet.

[Mr.Q]

Yeah I do most of my telephoto work with the A9 and the AF-C performance of that camera is unreal. I am confident that the SL2 with it's Maestro III processor would still be 2 generations behind the A9 in that department.

[bags27]

3 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

Yeah I do most of my telephoto work with the A9 and the AF-C performance of that camera is unreal. I am confident that the SL2 with it's Maestro III processor would still be 2 generations behind the A9 in that department.

I have a friend, a successful naturalist photographer, who's gone through every system (including Leica) and has recently settled on the Sony A9 as well.

[Mr.Q]

1 minute ago, bags27 said:

I have a friend, a successful naturalist photographer, who's gone through every system (including Leica) and has recently settled on the Sony A9 as well.

It almost feels like cheating with how good the AF-C tracking is.  There's also the 20fps silent shutter and blackout-free EVF, which makes it a no-brainer for wildlife. 

[sillbeers15]

37 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

Yeah I do most of my telephoto work with the A9 and the AF-C performance of that camera is unreal. I am confident that the SL2 with it's Maestro III processor would still be 2 generations behind the A9 in that department.

Granted Sony Alpha 9 II has the best in class action oriented AF. The A9I/II were created for that in mind and therefore kept optimised at 24MPx image sensor giving priority over AF performance. So it suits sports & nature shooters but not all applications.

For Leica SL users, we ask for a good and reliable AF system that can provide the SL2 @ 47MPx to be a good all round mirrorless camera to support the superb SL lenses which other makes lack.

[Chaemono]

vor 41 Minuten schrieb Mr.Q:

It almost feels like cheating with how good the AF-C tracking is.  There's also the 20fps silent shutter and blackout-free EVF, which makes it a no-brainer for wildlife. 

+1. My dream camera is an SL2 with a 48ish MPx stacked BSI sensor with built-in memory. This would not only give the SL2 a blackout-free EVF but also allow for 10-bit 4K video output at 60fps utilising the full width of the frame. 😀

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Hallo,

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[adan]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

+1. My dream camera is an SL2 with a 48ish MPx stacked BSI sensor with built-in memory. 😀

...and phase-detect AF.

While I'm not particularly in line for an SL or video - I agree about the leaps sensors have made. I have a Sony "bridge" RX10iv to get its "senior-portable 600mm f/4" reach, and the BSI-stacked-PDAF is pretty amazing (almost makes an EVF tolerable).

I expect Leica will get such tech for the SL(x) and M(x) and other products - eventually.