APO-Summicron- wasted on film?

[sicko]

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Getting my first Leica at the end of the month (either MP or M-A; see my other thread) and currently looking at lens options. The APO-Summicron has caught my eye, if for no reason other than sheer curiosity (I want to see what an $8k 50mm f/2 can do), and I'm quite an impulsive fellow so very well might go for it... but I got to wonder: would any perceived benefits of the APO be all but lost on film? Also, how 'bad' really is it for people photography? I've read in a few places now about incredibly bloody sharp it is, but that it might not be best suited to people photography (or more artistic photography, whatever that is). I'm well aware it's very sharp and transparent, but beyond that there seems to be much conflicting info; some saying it's got a magical rendering (which implies character), while others say it's clinical... some say bokeh is not pleasing at all, while others claim it's incredible. But that proves the highly subjective nature of all this bickering- it's pointless since different people prefer different things (though there also exists a contingent that will say they prefer something just because it costs the most and they've an investment to protect so fill threads with hyperbole). I shoot mostly portraits and was all set to go the Summilux 50 ASPH route, but I think I'll always wonder "but how would the APO have shot this?". 

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[mikeamosau]

I’ve not shot one on film, but it’s an amazing lens. Super sharp, beautiful vibrant colors, and tiny. 

The summilux is also awesome. I love that on film, nice grainy black and white with the smooth bokeh looks beautiful to me. 

Can’t really go wrong with both options. 

Did you decide on a camera? I saw the other post, and I just bought a new MP last weekend. I love it. 

[sicko]

13 minutes ago, mikeamosau said:

I’ve not shot one on film, but it’s an amazing lens. Super sharp, beautiful vibrant colors, and tiny. 

The summilux is also awesome. I love that on film, nice grainy black and white with the smooth bokeh looks beautiful to me. 

Can’t really go wrong with both options. 

Did you decide on a camera? I saw the other post, and I just bought a new MP last weekend. I love it. 

Yes, I'm fairly confident I'll be sticking to the camera I initially desired, which is the M-A- then I will add an MP next year. Best solution, imo. 

Do you shoot any portraits with the APO? Would be curious to know how you find it does with people. 

[sicko]

really i'm just curious if i should "bother" with the apo-summicron for my purposes: predominantly people photography, exclusively on film. for the same price i could get a summilux 50 asph, zeiss zm 35 1.4, and still have a good chunk left towards a tighter lens (i.e. summicron or summilux 75). but is the apo truly that remarkable that it's worth it? i have the seed planted in my head, mostly from reading this forum... but also have read several places now that it's just a nuanced benefit and actually not the right choice for people photos.

[monther]

I've had the APO and personally subjectively preferred every other version of the 50mm Summicron right back to the collapsible for portraits on film. They will all be great.

I'd use whatever 50mm lens you feel comfortable using as the effect of klutzing with a lens trying to nail focus is going to have far far more impact on the actual portrait you end up with than the tiny nuances of various lenses imho. Most of my favourite portraits of people I care about were taken around f/5.6 or f/8 and often impromptu/relaxed so I'm not sure the lens was really the point of difference at all. 

I don't think the 50mm APO will 'do' anything to people. I have portraits I made with the APO and with the Rigid Summicron on film that I think are indistinguishable. YMMV and others might feel differently of course and they'd be right too.If your subject is in the centre of the frame and the lens is not wide open, the differences will be very small imho.

[benqui]

The APO 50 is my favorite lens for analog portrait photography. Almost everything in my portrait photography is done with this lens. It is really a gem and I am totally happy with it. Furthermore it is very compact. Sometimes you can read that it is almost too sharp what I did not find on film at all. But like everything in photography, it is a matter of personal taste. Maybe you have the possibility to test it before you buy it. In some Leica stores you can do this. 

[ianman]

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1 hour ago, sicko said:

But that proves the highly subjective nature of all this bickering- it's pointless

Spot on. 🙂

One thing to remember is that the 90mm APO came out in 1998. Although digital was clearly on the horizon by then, film still was still widely used.

[PaulJohn]

Depends on the film. Some E6 film is very high resolution. For example my favourite Fujichrome Provia 100F.

Also depends on post processing- dark room or digital. Ie will you possibly amend contrast and colours in post processing?

Also depends on your eye. Can you see the difference on digital?

With expensive lenses you are often paying for the removal of flaws that show themselves on other lenses in certain types of photos. Sometimes you will never see a difference.

also consider character lenses such as Zeiss 50mm 1.5 sonnar. More compact and looks great on m-a

[ianman]

6 minutes ago, benqui said:

The APO 50 is my favorite lens for analog portrait photography. Almost everything in my portrait photography is done with this lens.

This should make you sit up and think. If you haven't seen benqui's beautiful portraits yet, I suggest you take a look.

[a.noctilux]

I don't think so that Apo-Summicron-M 50mm can be "waste on film".

Best films do have some secrets that even the best sensor can't compete for years to come.

How I know that...

I've just seen the wonder on the "cheap/first Apo-Telyt-R 3.4/180", 4/280mm and more effects Apo-Macro-Elmarit-R 2.8/100mm with my thousands of Kodachrome.

 

By then, we didn't happen to have "apo lenses" for M, now I'm certain that Fujifilm Velvia must "do" wonder with Apo-Summicron-M 50mm and other apos for M, 75/90/135.

[jaapv]

The APO Summicron is more likely wasted on digital screens IMO.

[a.noctilux]

7 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The APO Summicron is more likely wasted on digital screens IMO.

👍

I'm 100% with Jaap.

When I scan some slides, I can't have with scan the wonderful rendering of those slides projected on large screen.

"Seen on computer screen" these lack some "vivid rendering".

Here, I showed the best "scans", and even if some subtle details lost, these would be very hard to obtain with "24x36 sensor".

I know that scanning is rendering 'film spirit' in digital form, but some film renderings stay visible.

Post # 444

[romanus53]

The 50 apo will add Nothing to your pics not take anything away, the designer's goal was to create a perfect and neutral lens plus a smooth transistion in micro-contrast from focused object (higher) to oof (lower). This "effect" should be visible on film or digital but is not so dominant to me. The 50 Lux asph has a little bit busy bokeh so if you don't need the speed I'd go for the Apo which is more compact too.

[sicko]

9 hours ago, ianman said:

This should make you sit up and think. If you haven't seen benqui's beautiful portraits yet, I suggest you take a look.

Where may I view some? Would love to see some portraits taken on the APO. Thank you. 

[benqui]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb sicko:

Where may I view some? Would love to see some portraits taken on the APO. Thank you. 

To get an  overview ( most of the analog portraits were shot with the APO 50)

www.instagram.com\wick_marc\

if it does not work: just go on Instagram und search wick_marc

enjoy it

Marc

 

 

[sicko]

10 minutes ago, benqui said:

To get an  overview ( most of the analog portraits were shot with the APO 50)

www.instagram.com\wick_marc\

if it does not work: just go on Instagram und search wick_marc

enjoy it

Marc

 

 

lovely stuff, thank you for linking! makes me wonder why so many people have told me the apo wouldn't be ideal for portraits. have you ever compared to the summilux 50 asph? would be curious to know how you find them to compare.

also really love the images taken on the apo-90 in your gallery- it's another lens i'm interested in, though i'm not sure if i'd get that or the summilux 75 or summicron 75... tough choice! 

[a.noctilux]

😉 Tough choice 🔁

For now your first lens is tough choice,

you will see the second lens would be toughter yet, something like  " do I want to sell it for a two-lens set ? or keep the first and complete with other one or two or more ? "

We are lucky to have such choices 👌

Let's enjoy our luck.

[sicko]

6 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

😉 Tough choice 🔁

For now your first lens is tough choice,

you will see the second lens would be toughter yet, something like  " do I want to sell it for a two-lens set ? or keep the first and complete with other one or two or more ? "

We are lucky to have such choices 👌

Let's enjoy our luck.

i have followed you posts and appreciate your insight. would you personally get the 50-apo to start, or for same price: summilux 50 asph, zeiss zm 35 1.4, and have money leftover to put towards another lens (something more portrait length like 75 or 90). i like the idea of having "the best", and also like the above linked images taken on the apo. 

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[a.noctilux]

Sorry to say that "having the best" means nothing at all.

Those are only tools at whatever price, they are not "the best".

You can have "the best tool" and use it for " ... ", and like tools, you must master it, and the only way is

learn to use it at best.

[Herr Barnack]

I don't think any M lens could be considered a waste when shot with film.  Or with digital, for that matter. 

If you are going to make prints, you may be able to see a difference between the 50 Summilux ASPH and the 50 Summicron APO at large print sizes, as in 16x24 inches or larger.  If you have no intention of making large fine art display prints and all you will ever do with your images is look at them on a computer screen, IMHO both the 50 'lux and 50 APO would be more lens than you actually "need" for that purpose. 

That having been said, not many people actually need Leica M cameras and lenses.  These multi-thousand $/£/€ cameras and lenses are clearly quality of life issues for the vast majority of we Leica M connoisseurs.

And that having been said, if you just want the 50 APO and have the resources to comfortably acquire one, bu all means get one.  We only live once and last I heard, there is no glory in being the richest man in the cemetery.

Edited September 2, 2019 by Herr Barnack