Leica APO summicron 50 SL vs Summilux 50 SL?

[Chaemono]

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I think the 50 Summicron-SL is even sharper wide open than the 75. It’s only a bit bigger than the Sonnar FE 55/1.8 and IQ-wise it’s in a different universe (pricewise, too). I can post some shots α7R III with the FE 55/1.8 and S1R with the 50 Summicron-SL.

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[tom0511]

I think with high MP pixel sensors and pixelpeeper customers (I do not exclude myself) lenses get bigger than in earlier times. More and more people seeking for (optical) perfection.

[Chaemono]

I took a number of test shots with both lenses today and the answer to whether one needs the freakin' heavy 50 Summilux-SL when the freakin' sharp APO 50 Summicron-SL blurs the background so nicely remains 'it depends.' And it depends on DOF required to separate the subject and on how busy the background is, IMO. If the background is very busy and distracting, one definetly wants that f/1.4 blur.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-thQ8ZX/

In the first one, f/2 DOF and blur will do, thank you very much.

S1 + APO 50 Summicron-SL at f/2

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But in a scene like the one below, the 50 Summilux-SL should be the preferred lens.

S1 + APO 50 Summicron-SL at f/2

S1R + 50 Summilux-SL at f/1.4

Edited September 28, 2019 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And even if f/1.4 blur isn't always needed, it's nice to have it.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-thQ8ZX/

S1 + APO 50 Summicron-SL at f/2

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S1R + 50 Summilux-SL at f/1.4

Edited September 28, 2019 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And while Leica has raised and tightened the freakin' contrast curve so that the roll-off with the APO 50 Summicron-SL wide open creates a similar depth effect as if the lens were an f/1.4, the more buttery blur of the 50 Summilux-SL still results in better subject separation.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-thQ8ZX/

S1 + APO 50 Summicron-SL at f/2

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S1R + 50 Summilux-SL at f/1.4

[tom0511]

if there wasnt the size/weight than the Summilux would be still my prefered option.

So you keep both at the moment?

[Chaemono]

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I must say, the 50 Summilux-SL has become more of a niche lens now that the APO 50 Summicron-SL is out. I will keep it because I think it creates the best depth effect in combination with background blur of any f/1.4 lens (I compared it to quite a few). It’s not as sharp as the Otus in the corners but the difference becomes immaterial once the LR profiles are applied to the Zeiss lens. Leica did a smart thing and corrected corner distortion with opcodes rather than leave it up to LR.

The 50 Summicron is incredible, not only because of how sharp it is, but because the images look so clean. It captures subtle differences in tones of the same color so effortlessly wide open. Look at the headlight, for example. I can post a link to the DNG file. 

BTW, I can’t wait to see how the 50 Summicron-SL will perform on the SL2. That combo should be a stunner. 

[jrp]

And the Pano 50mm f1.4?

[Chaemono]

The Pano 50/1.4 is sharper than the 50 Summilux-SL even in the center. I realized this after I mounted the cameras on a tripod. But sometimes funny jittery things occur behind the focus point with the Pano lens. Depending on what one is shooting it can occur. It may not always be material. It’s funny, Jono didn’t see it and in many of my pictures I didn’t notice it either. But it can definitely happen. See some test shots here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-fJjs52/

The guys at Les Numériques are excellent reviewers, so thorough or just have extreme SPS. 😁 They saw the bokeh issues with the Pano lens right away. See further down in the Les Numériques review here: https://www.lesnumeriques.com/focales-fixes/panasonic-lumix-s-pro-50mm-f1-4-p52031/test.html

[jrp]

The French site doesn’t seem to be particularly enamoured with the Panasonic in its technical tests ... 

[mls1483]

Am 19.8.2019 um 07:24 schrieb Chaemono:

F/1.4 gets you twice the likes than f/2, and f/2 gets you twice the likes than f/2.8. 

You mean f/1.4 gathers twice the light that f/2 does, and f/2 gets you twice the light that f/2.8 does. 😉

[mls1483]

Am 19.8.2019 um 23:27 schrieb LeicaR10:

Tom0511,   I found the new 50 SL-Cron bokeh and color to be IMO, similar to the M 50mm APO-Cron.  The lens resolves again IMO, higher than the M 50 APO-Cron from my results.  The detail it renders is incredible.  I can only image what the SL lenses will do with the upcoming SL2.  The 50 SL-Lux bokeh, is softer and definitely a cross between the M 50 Noctilux and M 50 APO-Cron.  Jono Slack has some photographs on his article in the SL forum thread that might give you an idea of what the SL 50 APO-Cron can do.  I have the SL 50 APO-Cron for landscape photography.  I used the SL 50 Lux for that purpose for a while but found the M 50 APO-Cron worked better for my expectations and my clients liked my photographs rendered with the crisp detail better.  I use the SL 50 Lux for people photographs.  The SL 50 APO-Cron from what I see, resolves even higher detail.  Depending on what your genre of photography, you will find the SL 50 APO-Cron to resolve most excellent detail with smooth bokeh.  Last, if you have used/own(ed) the superb M 50 APO-Cron,  you will find the SL 50 APO-Cron to be even better resolution and color, bokeh being IMO, the same.  I hope this helps.  r/ Mark

The MTF cearly support your findings with respect to sharpness and contrast. The SL lenses are definitely sharper than the M lenses. The M lenses are smaller and lighter, however.

Summicron vs. Summilux depends more on DoF, bokeh/rendering, size/weight.

As to be expected...

[Chaemono]

vor 32 Minuten schrieb mls1483:

You mean f/1.4 gathers twice the light that f/2 does, and f/2 gets you twice the light that f/2.8 does. 😉

😁 Well stated. It was a typo...and a grammatical error (twice as). 

[mls1483]

Am 28.9.2019 um 20:00 schrieb Chaemono:

And while Leica has raised and tightened the freakin' contrast curve so that the roll-off with the APO 50 Summicron-SL wide open creates a similar depth effect as if the lens were an f/1.4, the more buttery blur of the 50 Summilux-SL still results in better subject separation.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-thQ8ZX/

S1 + APO 50 Summicron-SL at f/2

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S1R + 50 Summilux-SL at f/1.4

You are a very keen observer! Even if one does not need the extra light gathered by f/1.4, subject separation/blur will still be different.

In theory, the focal plane is a mere plane. However, airy discs (behind the focal plane) will always be larger for larger apertures. When they merge, the blur will be smoother. So, not only in theory f/1.4 will always be f/1.4 and f/2 will always be f/2. It all depends how close you look.  And even if you do not look, it will be the impression that makes the difference.

 

 

 

[mls1483]

Am 17.9.2019 um 07:23 schrieb Chaemono:

I think the 50 Summicron-SL is even sharper wide open than the 75. It’s only a bit bigger than the Sonnar FE 55/1.8 and IQ-wise it’s in a different universe (pricewise, too). I can post some shots α7R III with the FE 55/1.8 and S1R with the 50 Summicron-SL.

The Sonnar FE 55mm f/1.8 is an interesting lens. It sometimes reminds me of the Summilux M 50mm f/.14 (bokeh, fall-off, 3D-rendering). It is also quite sharp. However, aberrations (especially axial CA) are horrible. The 50mm SL are indeed a different universe.

[mls1483]

Am 16.9.2019 um 18:11 schrieb Chaemono:

You can be so thin-skinned sometimes. 

PS: I think Tom hates foreign persons posting in the international part of the forum. 

How can you be native citizen in an international forum?

[Chaemono]

You have to ask caissa this. He felt discriminated against as a “foreign person.” 🤣

[tom0511]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb mls1483:

How can you be native citizen in an international forum?

I never understood why there is a german  forum and an international one. One reason could be that there are maybe many germans using Leica who not all know to or want to communicate in english. Other than that I post mostly in the international forum because I want to chat to people from everywhere.

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[Chaemono]

Below some "crazy comparisons"  between the Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Sonnar and the APO 50 Summicron-SL. The Sony lens costs about one fifth of the Leica lens and it's the sharpest under $1,000 lens wide open I've ever seen. In fact, it resolves nearly as much detail in the center as the 50 Summicron-SL does (I'll eventually check the corners). Furthermore, it's a Sonnar which means it creates an OOF background almost as buttery as a Summilux does even if it's only f/1.8. The Summicrons, on the other hand, preserve more details in the OOF areas because they are not designed for creamy bokeh that lets lines and structures melt away. I'd say the Sony lens on the α7R III is a great walk around lens and the two together are a nice combo to shoot family and friends, particularly since the Sony AF works great (Panasonic's CDAF with the 50 Summicron-SL is occasionally more difficult to focus on a subject against a busy background, I found).

What is the drawback of the FE 55mm F1.8 Sonnar then? As mls1483 mentioned in #155, the Sony lens is optimized for maximum sharpness wide open but its cheap design means that it's too constrained to avoid CA/PF even in the least challenging situations. Let's take a look at a couple of pictures.

There are few observations one can make here. First, the APO 50 Summicron-SL creates more of a depth effect because of that tightened and raised contrast curve but the Sony lens separates the subject sufficiently because of that Sonnar design. Second, the APO 50 Summicron-SL, just like its M sibling, concentrates the light and increases the contrast at the point of focus which means that even in less well lighted scenes and less bright pictures details are nicely resolved and shown. This results in the viewer's eyes being drawn to the subject immediately. Some people argue that this is due to vignetting, but it's not and I have tons of pictures to show. I call it the 'Leica Effect.'

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-thQ8ZX/

α7R III + Sony FE 55/1.8 Sonnar at f/1.8

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S1R + APO 50 Summicron-SL at f/2

[Chaemono]

How about CA/PF? Well, how about it? The Sony FE 55mm F1.8 Sonnar, unfortunately, has tons of it. BTW, I know that the Summilux M lenses do as well wide open, but only at the edges of extreme bright and dark areas which is not the case in the example here. Again, see how the Sony picture is brighter overall but the subject is equally exposed in both? That's the 'Leica Effect.' 😁

 

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-thQ8ZX/

α7R III + Sony FE 55/1.8 Sonnar at f/1.8

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S1R + APO 50 Summicron-SL at f/2

Edited October 3, 2019 by Chaemono