Help me understand push/pull on M3?

[quixotic_elixer]

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I am hoping someone can help me understand how to push/pull film on my Leica M3? As far as I understand it, it's as simple as setting the ISO above or below a stop or two.

On the M3, am I essentially just aiming to under/over expose by a stop or 2? How does this work when i'm using something like the sunny 16 to guess my exposure?
 

[105012]

Yes, under or over expose your "correct" exposure. Normally one would treat the entire roll in a consistent fashion so that development can be adjusted for the push/pull.

[250swb]

2 hours ago, quixotic_elixer said:

I am hoping someone can help me understand how to push/pull film on my Leica M3? As far as I understand it, it's as simple as setting the ISO above or below a stop or two.

 

....and adjusting the development of the film to compensate for pushing (under exposing) or pulling (over exposing). It won't work consistently if you are guessing the exposure, why not use a meter and work with facts?

[a.noctilux]

If you use M3 without Leicameter on it, push/pull film is not relevant.

Concept of push/pull is for films that you know well their behaviors when over-develop or under-develop.

While using 400 ISO film and the subject needs more sensitivity, so you can use that 400 ISO film at 1600 ISO to "gain 2 stops".

After that, when develop the film exposed at 1600 ISO "push 2 stops" with more time in developer and/or at higher temperature.

When you want a kind of "less contrast", and plenty of light, that's for "push film", the 400 ISO film can be used at 100 ISO setting on the meter.

Then develop accordingly less time in developer mainly.

[adan]

As 250swb says, pushing and pulling film is a two-step technique.

First, you expose the film as though it was a slower film (give it more light - overexpose) or as though it were a faster film (give it less light - underexpose).

Then you develop the film correspondingly for: less time than normal (pull - as in "pull the film out of the developer early"); or for more time than normal time (push - as in push up the amount of silver with chemicals, in an underexposed picture). This keeps the overall amount of silver in the final image "approximately" equal to normal exposure and normal development/processing - you get a usable negative even with a different exposure.

It is the change in processing that is the actual push or pull - under- or over-exposing alone are not "pushing" and "pulling."

However, film usually has some amount of latitude. It can be intentionally or unintentionally over- or under-exposed a small amount and still produce acceptable (but less than ideal) pictures, with normal processing. But that is not pushing or pulling. Latitude depends on the type of film: Slide (positive/diapositive) films have very limited latitude of perhaps 1/2 stop over or under; color negs (and the "B&W" films that use C-41 processing, like Ilford XP2) usually have a latitude of 1/2 stop under and 2 stops over; silver B&W films have a latitude of about 1 stop each way - usually a bit less for the T-Grain films (Kodak TMax, Ilford Delta).

A film only has one actual ISO speed - the speed that will give an exact amount of shadow detail under testing conditions specified by the International Standards Organization (ISO). When Kodak marks a box of Tri-X or TMax400 as "ISO 400," that is its one and only ISO, as determined by testing in their lab for shadow density vs. exposure according to ISO specs.

Exposing the film at some other meter-setting than the box-labelled ISO will change that shadow density, and thus those pictures no longer conform to ISO standards. In other words, underexposing ISO 400 Tri-X by setting your meter to 1600 does not magically make Tri-X an ISO 1600 film - with or without with push-processing. It is still an ISO 400 film, exposed at an Exposure Index (EI) of 1600. It will have an "incorrect" amount of shadow density to qualify as an ISO 1600 film. Equally, shooting ISO 400 by setting your meter to 200 does not make it an ISO 200 film - you are simply exposing the same ISO 400 film at an EI of 200.

______________________________

Anyway - to push or pull film using Sunny 16, you simply adjust the shutter speed to match the intended Exposure Index, rather than the box ISO. In other words, if you want to push Tri-X to 1600, you would set your shutter to 1/1600th, and then use f/16 in bright sun (Sunny 16), f/11 in crosslighting or hazy sun; f/5.6 under overast skies; f/4 in deep shade, etc. etc. If you want to "pull" Tri-X one stop, you set your shutter to 1/200th (or 1/250, or between 1/250 and 1/125 depending on M3 type), and then use the "sunny 16" aperture that applies for your lighting conditions

And then develop the film, or tell your lab to develop the film, for a 2-stop push (about twice the normal developer time) or a 1-stop pull (about half the normal time).

You may find pushing under sunlight is difficult with an M3's top shutter speed of 1/1000th sec. (which may actually be only 1/750 sec or so, unless it has had a recent cleaning and adjusting ). You'll have to do some mental math in setting the aperture. E.G. under bright sun, push TX 400 to 1600 by setting the shutter to box speed (1/500th) and also stopping down two extra stops (make it "Sunny f/22").

Edited May 30, 2019 by adan

[quixotic_elixer]

8 hours ago, 250swb said:

....and adjusting the development of the film to compensate for pushing (under exposing) or pulling (over exposing). It won't work consistently if you are guessing the exposure, why not use a meter and work with facts?

I get conceptually how pushing/pulling works, and that it also requires a second aspect of development to achieve the full process. My question was specifically on how to go about it on my M3 without a meter mainly because I don't like carrying one around and like using sunny 16. But to your point, i suppose a meter would be the simplest solution to the problem of achieving the exposure required to push/pull. 

[quixotic_elixer]

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2 hours ago, adan said:

 

______________________________

Anyway - to push or pull film using Sunny 16, you simply adjust the shutter speed to match the intended Exposure Index, rather than the box ISO. In other words, if you want to push Tri-X to 1600, you would set your shutter to 1/1600th, and then use f/16 in bright sun (Sunny 16), f/11 in crosslighting or hazy sun; f/5.6 under overast skies; f/4 in deep shade, etc. etc. If you want to "pull" Tri-X one stop, you set your shutter to 1/200th (or 1/250, or between 1/250 and 1/125 depending on M3 type), and then use the "sunny 16" aperture that applies for your lighting conditions

And then develop the film, or tell your lab to develop the film, for a 2-stop push (about twice the normal developer time) or a 1-stop pull (about half the normal time).

You may find pushing under sunlight is difficult with an M3's top shutter speed of 1/1000th sec. (which may actually be only 1/750 sec or so, unless it has had a recent cleaning and adjusting ). You'll have to do some mental math in setting the aperture. E.G. under bright sun, push TX 400 to 1600 by setting the shutter to box speed (1/500th) and also stopping down two extra stops (make it "Sunny f/22").

This is extremely helpful and what I was looking for! You are totally right about the limitation of the top shutter speed as well (which I have found an interesting challenge coming from digital). So if I am trying to push say portra 400 with sunny 16, realistically I'd only be able to push it 1stop at 1/1000th or some combination of it and compensate by closing down the aperture a stop?

This will be fun...!

[jaapv]

And then, of course, there is Fuji Multichrome MS 100-1000. https://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/AF3-989E.pdf

Did anybody use it?

[a.noctilux]

With Portra 400 which is a color negative film, no way to push or pull (as processing is standard in commercial lab).

You can play with the push/pull only if you do processing yourself.

Two things to be aware of :  1 - film like Portra has so large latitude that you can under or over-expose to four or five EV and still usable/printable

2 - when processing in standard lab, printing can be another trap, as normally it's also standard : no way to know that you want low key or high key

only home processing/printing can give you what your planned intention using push/pull process

 

[Pyrogallol]

Agree with the advice given above. Best to use a meter until you can guess the correct exposure in most conditions. Using the “sunny 16” is ok when it is sunny, but as the light drops you are more likely to be off in your estimate of the exposure and you will get the push or pull you want by accident. But pushing or pulling needs to be done to all the exposures on the film as you need to adjust the development time of the film, or sometimes use a different developer to compensate for the “incorrect” exposure, when using black and white film, colour film is a different matter.

As to pushing or pulling on an M3 it is just a matter of changing the shutter speed or aperture, nothing the camera does will override your setting of the exposure, unlike a camera with automatic metering, but even then you can fool it by adjusting the ISO.

Edited May 30, 2019 by Pyrogallol

[spydrxx]

Changing exposure on an M3, which is a fully manual camera, is done merely by changing the aperture of the lens or the shutter speed. You can't change the ISO of the film you are using, as per its definition. The ISO film guide on the back door is merely a reminder, it does nothing in terms of affecting exposure. Others' comments on "pushing/pulling" are germaine.

[adan]

4 hours ago, jaapv said:

And then, of course, there is Fuji Multichrome MS 100-1000. https://www.fujifilmusa.com/shared/bin/AF3-989E.pdf

Did anybody use it?

I did - once. Basically it was ISO 100 film engineered with lower native contrast and saturation to leave headroom for the effects of pushing to other EIs. That is, it had a bit more latitude than most E6 films - at the cost of less punch. Not as colorful and snappy as a regular ISO 100 film.

It still required overdevelopment by various amounts - per roll - to achieve the higher EIs

8 minutes for EI 200, 11 minutes for 400, 14 for 800, and 15~16 for EI 1000

And still lost some quality with pushing:

"With push-processing, however, certain differences in maximum densities, color balance and gradation will be seen. For precise results it is advisable that test exposures be made whenever possible."

If you had a reason to stock only one color slide film, but needed different speeds at different times, it was flexible. That didn't seem to apply to most people.

Edited May 30, 2019 by adan

[pico]

Push/Pull - keep it simple. If photographing outdoors at noon (the worst case only for quotidian), rate your B&W film for at least 1/2 ISO, and under-develop 15% if you intend to scan the negative. I know I will get a lot of flak for that. So be it.

On the other hand if you are going to print in your own darkroom, please start a new thread.

[adan]

8 hours ago, adan said:

And then develop the film, or tell your lab to develop the film, for a 2-stop push (about twice the normal developer time) or a 1-stop pull (about half the normal time).

Correction: developing time for a 1-stop pull is ~70% or normal. Half normal would be for a 2-stop pull.

As with many things in photography, development times per stop push or pull run in a pattern based on the square root of two (1.4159...).

[jaapv]

5 hours ago, adan said:

I did - once. Basically it was ISO 100 film engineered with lower native contrast and saturation to leave headroom for the effects of pushing to other EIs. That is, it had a bit more latitude than most E6 films - at the cost of less punch. Not as colorful and snappy as a regular ISO 100 film.

It still required overdevelopment by various amounts - per roll - to achieve the higher EIs

8 minutes for EI 200, 11 minutes for 400, 14 for 800, and 15~16 for EI 1000

And still lost some quality with pushing:

"With push-processing, however, certain differences in maximum densities, color balance and gradation will be seen. For precise results it is advisable that test exposures be made whenever possible."

If you had a reason to stock only one color slide film, but needed different speeds at different times, it was flexible. That didn't seem to apply to most people.

BTW, What was that horrible Kodak multi-ISO colour negative film that was claimed to have a latitude (IIRC) of 200-1600 ASA? I still regret the shots it spoilt during an African trip years ago. I can’t recall it’s name. 

[mdp]

14 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

With Portra 400 which is a color negative film, no way to push or pull (as processing is standard in commercial lab).

You can play with the push/pull only if you do processing yourself.

I thought most decent labs will push or pull by a stop or two?

[250swb]

15 hours ago, quixotic_elixer said:

My question was specifically on how to go about it on my M3 without a meter mainly because I don't like carrying one around and like using sunny 16.

Film photography is about reducing variables so the results you want are the results you get day after day. If you 'guess' a one stop push for the film and it's wrong you've added a variable. You can't plan to compensate for this in development without making what amounts to a further guess, even if you are looking at a development chart. So you now have two variables, both of which could be taking you further and further away from the result you want. You then only need to introduce another variable such as a developer maybe better suited to pushing film and you have three variables, when all the time you could be working without any variables.

Using the 'Sunny 16' approach can work because you are only introducing one educated guess, knowing that the film development will remain the same throughout, but that's enough guessing. It isn't to say that after a year of looking at a meter and planning to push or pull film in development you can't then do without a meter, you have the practical knowledge learned from using the facts of what the meter is telling you. Pushing and pulling film just one stop can require a fairly radical change in development times, something you wouldn't want to get wrong if you want consistent results. So you can ask a lab to push the film, you can do it yourself, but the best way to see how a one stop under exposure works is to look at some development charts showing the compensation factor involved. 

[Graham (G4FUJ)]

10 hours ago, mdp said:

I thought most decent labs will push or pull by a stop or two?

Yes, they will.

Certainly my local lab will

[jmahto]

On 5/30/2019 at 9:38 AM, a.noctilux said:

With Portra 400 which is a color negative film, no way to push or pull (as processing is standard in commercial lab).

You can play with the push/pull only if you do processing yourself.

Two things to be aware of :  1 - film like Portra has so large latitude that you can under or over-expose to four or five EV and still usable/printable

2 - when processing in standard lab, printing can be another trap, as normally it's also standard : no way to know that you want low key or high key

only home processing/printing can give you what your planned intention using push/pull process

 

My mail lab does push pull. Last year I pushed Portra 400 by one stop (it as indoor car show) and I liked the results.

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[earleygallery]

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