SL to Pana S1?

[LocalHero1953]

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Well I'd still like to have it, even if my need is less.
(That sentence could apply to my whole life with Leica).

Edited May 2, 2019 by LocalHero1953

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[oudjunk]

Thanks all of you guys for all opinion, I have sold my SL but right now i bought it again and i really miss it so much.

someone just ask me why don't i buy the Pana s1? because there are many new feature when compare to the SL. 

However, i still prefer the simplicity of SL and waiting for the SL2 in future.   

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 5/1/2019 at 6:51 AM, thighslapper said:

..... only if you have a decent sensor .....

on the S1R I would probably switch off LENR for daylight long exposures ...... but for anything with a fair amount of shadow in it ..... particularly if you intend to lift the shadows I would have LENR on. There are a lot of multicoloured hottish pixels that show up quite easily otherwise..... even at base ISO. I think I'd rather spend another few minutes waiting for LENR than 10 minutes with the Healing Brush in LR. Furthermore you don't know how bad the problem will be till you get to the processing stage, so you are taking a bit of a gamble. Having tried it on an off on the S1R I can see Leica's logic in leaving it as mandatory, even though it's annoying not having the choice. 

There are other ways to deal with long exposure noise and more reasons to have it off. Multiple exposures for star trails. Multiple exposures for object removal. Then it's not that hard to take a dark frame and do 95% of the noise reduction as a layer in Photoshop in post.

Gordon

[jmahto]

On 5/1/2019 at 12:01 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

My reality check with IBIS last night, shooting dress rehearsals for a stage production. You can have all the IS in the world and it will still make little difference if you're shooting anything that moves. Most of what I use the SL for moves: music & theatre performance, portraits, other events. Rarely does everyone stand still for me. If you shoot landscape or buildings/cityscapes, of course, IS is vital. But for me, IBIS has just moved down the priority list for the SL2.

 

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Just ask them to calm down and relax!

[LocalHero1953]

2 hours ago, jmahto said:

Just ask them to calm down and relax!

They found it tricky at times, and the AF couldn't keep up:

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

But the SL and 24-90 kept up most of the times:

[LocalHero1953]

Apologies for posting photos in a non-photo thread, but I think it was worth showing why a (rational!) decision to switch from SL to S1/S1R should take account of real world usage. The 500 photos of the rehearsal that I took the night before last demanded not more pixels or edge to bleeding edge sharpness, but a clear, responsive VF that works in low light, good low light colour as well as noise, fast AF, an instant response between shutter press and image capture, and a body that makes it easy to switch between AF modes. I have read nothing about the S1 or S1R that persuades me that I ought to switch. I suspect the S1/S1R may be a bit better than the SL in low light, but not to a level that makes it a no brainer, especially when I far prefer Leica's low button count ethos. I'll wait and see what the SL2 looks like.

YMMV, obviously.

[ron777]

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41 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Apologies for posting photos in a non-photo thread, but I think it was worth showing why a (rational!) decision to switch from SL to S1/S1R should take account of real world usage. The 500 photos of the rehearsal that I took the night before last demanded not more pixels or edge to bleeding edge sharpness, but a clear, responsive VF that works in low light, good low light colour as well as noise, fast AF, an instant response between shutter press and image capture, and a body that makes it easy to switch between AF modes. I have read nothing about the S1 or S1R that persuades me that I ought to switch. I suspect the S1/S1R may be a bit better than the SL in low light, but not to a level that makes it a no brainer, especially when I far prefer Leica's low button count ethos. I'll wait and see what the SL2 looks like.

YMMV, obviously.

I am continuously amazed by the number of people who appear fearful of buttons.  They are there for your convenience, and are representative of the camera's plethora of functional offerings.  Their use is not a requirement, nor are they an obstruction to proper camera operation, but they do provide immediate access to numerous, customizable functions.  Leica SL's minimalist approach to buttons, levers or whatever they choose to call their actuators, is an external representation of their minimalist approach to function.  

Fewer options require fewer menu items, which in turn allow for less buttons.  Is it simpler, of course, but simplicity may exist in the eyes of the beholder.  For some, it's all about options and the ability to pick and choose from a list of functions, rather than having to make do with what a manufacturer feels is best.  Is one approach better than the other, not at all.  That's why there are different flavors of ice cream.

Edited May 2, 2019 by ron777

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, ron777 said:

I am continuously amazed by the number of people who appear fearful of buttons.  .................

I remain continuously amazed that there are still people out there who don't understand that not everyone is the same. Characterising people different from you as "fearful" is discourteous.

I very carefully put a YMMV at the end of my post. Your mileage clearly does vary. Fine.

And, for the record, I've owned cameras with lots of buttons. As a result I prefer cameras with fewer buttons.

[ron777]

22 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I remain continuously amazed that there are still people out there who don't understand that not everyone is the same. Characterising people different from you as "fearful" is discourteous.

I very carefully put a YMMV at the end of my post. Your mileage clearly does vary. Fine.

And, for the record, I've owned cameras with lots of buttons. As a result I prefer cameras with fewer buttons.

There is nothing discourteous about one's opinion, and how else would you characterize an aversion to buttons.  That said, no offense was intended, the statement was one of pure wonderment, and I made it very clear at the end of the post, with the ice cream analogy, that different people like different things.  You, on the other hand, chose to cherry pick a particular sentiment that for some odd reason you found offensive.  But these days almost everyone is offended by something.

BTW, not being a member of the millennial crowd, I have no idea what YMMV means.

Edited May 2, 2019 by ron777

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, ron777 said:

There is nothing discourteous about one's opinion, and how else would you characterize an aversion to buttons.  That said, no offense was intended, the statement was one of pure wonderment, and I made it very clear at the end of the post, with the ice cream analogy, that different people like different things.  You, on the other hand, chose to cherry pick a particular sentiment that for some odd reason you found offensive.  But these days almost everyone is offended by something.

Well, I suppose if you actually think people are fearfiul of buttons, then certainly I will accept it as your opinion.....

[ron777]

OK, I do not wish to enter into a semantic squabble.  Let's just say that you, and others, do not like an excess—however you choose to define excess—of buttons.  I, and others, on the other hand, take no issue with them and in fact find them useful.  I prefer a stick shift transmission(although, good luck finding one),  while you may prefer automatic, and so on.

Edited May 2, 2019 by ron777

[thighslapper]

The S1R has 19 buttons, 3 levers, 3 rotating dials with a total of 17 different functions, 3 rotating wheels for menu functions, a joystick and a toggle wheel. 

If that isn't 'death by a thousand buttons' then nothing is.

The SL is a masterpiece of simplicity in comparison and I rarely have to access any menus with the profile options I have set up.

However, at least Panasonic have arranged things ergonomically and in normal use most are conveniently arranged or can be ignored if you wish. 

I don't like the excess of external controls, but I do like the camera, the results and the way it handles..... unlike the Sony A7 series which I came to loathe after a week. 

 

[BernardC]

59 minutes ago, ron777 said:

BTW, not being a member of the millennial crowd, I have no idea what YMMV means.

"Your mileage may vary." Far from being a millennial thing, it's old boilerplate from American automobile ads in the 1970s.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Apologies for posting photos in a non-photo thread, but I think it was worth showing why a (rational!) decision to switch from SL to S1/S1R should take account of real world usage. The 500 photos of the rehearsal that I took the night before last demanded not more pixels or edge to bleeding edge sharpness, but a clear, responsive VF that works in low light, good low light colour as well as noise, fast AF, an instant response between shutter press and image capture, and a body that makes it easy to switch between AF modes. I have read nothing about the S1 or S1R that persuades me that I ought to switch. I suspect the S1/S1R may be a bit better than the SL in low light, but not to a level that makes it a no brainer, especially when I far prefer Leica's low button count ethos. I'll wait and see what the SL2 looks like.

YMMV, obviously.

I think it's wise to mention the limitations of technology in real world usage.....

And I agree on the buttons. The S1R has a pretty good layout for a many buttoned camera but it's no SL.

However the S1 and S1R are MUCH quicker than the SL, not a *bit*. Low light AF is notably superior as is single shot AF speed. The sensor is better as well, although I don't think it's a bad sensor in the SL. Side by side in low light I think it actually is a no brainer. Hopefully the SL2 will have this technology in it.

Gordon

[FlashGordonPhotography]

1 hour ago, ron777 said:

I am continuously amazed by the number of people who appear fearful of buttons.  They are there for your convenience, and are representative of the camera's plethora of functional offerings.  Their use is not a requirement, nor are they an obstruction to proper camera operation, but they do provide immediate access to numerous, customizable functions.  Leica SL's minimalist approach to buttons, levers or whatever they choose to call their actuators, is an external representation of their minimalist approach to function.  

Fewer options require fewer menu items, which in turn allow for less buttons.  Is it simpler, of course, but simplicity may exist in the eyes of the beholder.  For some, it's all about options and the ability to pick and choose from a list of functions, rather than having to make do with what a manufacturer feels is best.  Is one approach better than the other, not at all.  That's why there are different flavors of ice cream.

There is a finite number of buttons that I can remember and operate without having to take a camera away from my eye, or even thinking about them. I like the S1R, a lot. But I don't think I'll soon get to a point where I can navigate all those buttons without having to stop thinking about photography and start thinking about the camera. The SL has 7-8 buttons and a joystick and that seems to be the right number where I don't even think about using them. It's totally instinctive and that's really great when you're not wanting to be distracted by the camera.

The S1R is the best of the many button cameras. They're well placed and customisable. But I'll use 6-7 of them and ignore the rest because that's how many I remember instantly. And I'll lower the camera from my eye to change modes or the drive settings.

I have lots of cameras and I'm pretty good at moving between them. However, it takes a few minutes to adapt. Except for the SL. I can pick that up after a month and I'm instantly at home. To me, this is far more important than sensors and functions. Not to ay those things aren't important, just that they're lower in my order of needs than handling and balance.

Gordon

[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I think it's wise to mention the limitations of technology in real world usage.....

And I agree on the buttons. The S1R has a pretty good layout for a many buttoned camera but it's no SL.

However the S1 and S1R are MUCH quicker than the SL, not a *bit*. Low light AF is notably superior as is single shot AF speed. The sensor is better as well, although I don't think it's a bad sensor in the SL. Side by side in low light I think it actually is a no brainer. Hopefully the SL2 will have this technology in it.

Gordon

Thanks for the comments on performance. I'm guessing that by 'quicker' you mean faster AF? That would be attractive to me. AF performance in speed, face recognition, tracking and just simple AF management etc is one area where cameras are not all equal and still have a way to go in evolutionary terms (unlike, say, megapixels, where I don't need more than 24). I hope the SL2 is as good as the S1/S1R then, as that would make a choice easier than trying to weigh AF speed vs button density.

Edited May 3, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[tom0511]

For example the SL joystick also works as AF-on button. For me this works better than 2 seperate buttons. Because I can move the AF point and then instantly activate focus without moving my thumb to another button. I also dont need to be able to switch to MF on the lens, and I dont need to switch IS on and off at the lens. With the S1 these 2 buttons sometimes witch when I put the camera/lens into the bag and I realize some shots later that IS was deactivated. On the other side the button to switch AF modes on the S1r is really useful for me. Overall the optimum for me would be something in between. A few more buttons than the SL but not as many as the S1r.

[helged]

38 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

For example the SL joystick also works as AF-on button. For me this works better than 2 seperate buttons. Because I can move the AF point and then instantly activate focus without moving my thumb to another button. I also dont need to be able to switch to MF on the lens, and I dont need to switch IS on and off at the lens. With the S1 these 2 buttons sometimes witch when I put the camera/lens into the bag and I realize some shots later that IS was deactivated. On the other side the button to switch AF modes on the S1r is really useful for me. Overall the optimum for me would be something in between. A few more buttons than the SL but not as many as the S1r.

+1.

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[MarkP]

On 5/3/2019 at 7:33 AM, thighslapper said:

The S1R has 19 buttons, 3 levers, 3 rotating dials with a total of 17 different functions, 3 rotating wheels for menu functions, a joystick and a toggle wheel. 

If that isn't 'death by a thousand buttons' then nothing is.

The SL is a masterpiece of simplicity in comparison and I rarely have to access any menus with the profile options I have set up.

'Death by a thousand buttons' 😁
One of the main attractions of Leica for me has been simplicity of user interface as in the days of film cameras.
You've just killed my interest in the Panasonic S1R for good.

[meerec]

2 minutes ago, MarkP said:

'Death by a thousand buttons' 😁
One of the main attractions of Leica for me has been simplicity of user interface as in the days of film cameras.
You've just killed my interest in the Panasonic S1R for good.

+1