Getting a Film vs Digital M as a long-term companion

[Och]

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On 3/28/2019 at 9:50 AM, Jon Glass said:

Are you after an heirloom, or a camera?  No judgement in the question - I make no bones about the fact that I switched to Leica because I wanted a camera I could use for a lifetime (MP) and maybe give to my kids.  The mortality rate for digital cameras, even Leicas, can't compare to film, so a digital M was out for me.  I also love the film process and will build my own dark room to support my habit, so that's obviously part of the calculus for my decision.

On the other hand, if your goal is simply to take the pictures you want to take...you have a film camera that is serviceable today, and a phenomenal digital camera - from a utility standpoint it sounds like you already have what you need.

Edit:  Lest I make myself a hypocrite, I should also note that sometimes what you want is what you want, and nothing else will do.  If you want a digital M, sell your gear and buy one.  If you can get 10 years out of it, the costs per year actually start to look reasonable.

Hmm.. good question. Maybe a bit of both? There is something alluring about having 1 camera that will age with me and stay with me for the rest of my life, which I think is frankly impossible to expect out of a digital camera compared to film. 

The Canon A-E1P is almost already a family heirloom. My FIL bought it new sometime in the early 80s and gave it to me recently and he also recently passed. So a lot of sentimental value, so it would be great if THIS is the film camera that I can keep using. I guess I'm concerned about an already almost 40 year old camera continuing to work for another 40 years.  Not to mention it requires a battery to operate so not sure if the specific one necessary will continue to be produced. Wish he had a Leica or at least a Nikon FM instead 😁

But yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm pretty happy with my current setup. If the A-E1P becomes non serviceable/operable, I'll worry about it then and will evaluate how I feel about continuing to shoot film along with how practical it will be at that time.  And obviously eventually my Leica Q will die, and at that point maybe I can consider replacing it with an M.  Maybe if both cameras die for good around the same time I can consider a Leica M digital as combining the things I like about both...

[harmen]

How about considering some m lenses?  They do not need batteries and age well.  They make wonderful objects to cherish.  They will eventually collect some signs and marks of the life they live.  You could have one per child.  The choice of (m) camera then becomes easier to make.

[pixie]

19 hours ago, Och said:

Hmm.. good question. Maybe a bit of both? There is something alluring about having 1 camera that will age with me and stay with me for the rest of my life, which I think is frankly impossible to expect out of a digital camera compared to film. 

The Canon A-E1P is almost already a family heirloom. My FIL bought it new sometime in the early 80s and gave it to me recently and he also recently passed. So a lot of sentimental value, so it would be great if THIS is the film camera that I can keep using. I guess I'm concerned about an already almost 40 year old camera continuing to work for another 40 years.  Not to mention it requires a battery to operate so not sure if the specific one necessary will continue to be produced. Wish he had a Leica or at least a Nikon FM instead 😁

But yes, the more I think about it, the more I'm pretty happy with my current setup. If the A-E1P becomes non serviceable/operable, I'll worry about it then and will evaluate how I feel about continuing to shoot film along with how practical it will be at that time.  And obviously eventually my Leica Q will die, and at that point maybe I can consider replacing it with an M.  Maybe if both cameras die for good around the same time I can consider a Leica M digital as combining the things I like about both...

The battery in Canon-Ae-1 is easily available, (the single piece 6v.) BUT 4x 44 cells cane be made to work, need spacer, if carefully dismantle old battery.

Note pay for 6v Silver Oxide as it was designed for 10,000 exposures..Use Silver Oxide as well when 4 cells..

My Ae-1 is black, mint condition, a gift from also  one who has passed..

I love my M's but kinda nice to have automation in metering.

Added a 28mm Canon lens and have also 35~105mm Zoom. A true zoom as aperture of f3,5 throughout range..

 

[chrism]

Not only will a film Leica last longer than a digital one, but the images are probably a great deal more durable. Anyone notice the recent Apple updates that convert old media formats that will no longer be readable in the next version of macOS?

But while I'm picking out a long term film body, I'll add that despite my love of the convenience of an accurate TTL meter, I would not pick anything with an internal meter, batteries or electronics beyond a flash sync contact if longevity is my main consideration. Hence my only remaining Leica is an M2. It will outlive me, and will go on as long as occasional parts are available when it needs a service.

[Archiver]

My collection of digital cameras goes back to 2002, and most of them work as they did when first purchased. I have a Canon 30D and 5D Mark II which have worked perfectly since I bought them and have never needed repair. My M9 is in its ninth year and still going fine, although there have been a couple of mechanical issues along the way: the shutter mechanism stopped recocking about seven months after purchase, and the coating on the small rangefinder window is peeling off, which makes the patch less easy to see. I'll have to get that fixed sooner or later. But the camera itself still takes great images, especially after sensor replacement.

If you want a Leica that will last a lifetime, then a film M is your best bet. But that comes with the inconveniences and costs of film, supply of which may become more and more expensive and difficult as time goes on. A digital Leica, preferably a model with all the bugs ironed out, will probably last a good 15 years or more. A couple of good batteries purchased down the line will help ensure that your camera has reliable power.

Leica is the only camera brand I know which is associated with the notion of 'one camera for life'. This notion has been strongly reinforced by the 50 and 60 year old mechanical models which are still going strong. But in the digital age, we have to let that romantic notion go as products are geared for a far shorter lifespan and require much more complex repairs.

[burini]

Leica's have their weaknesses ("all mechanical" implies complexity not simplicity). Factor in regular (long-term) servicing and you could end up paying the price of the camera over again. One can argue a premium vintage Japanese camera (in top shape) may be more robust and lot less hassle. If I believed a Leica was a camera for life I wouldn't have sold my M6. Technically, you get soooo much more for the same money BUT a Leica holds its value. (As nice as they are, I wouldn't buy another one.)

Edited April 2, 2019 by burini

[pico]

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28 minutes ago, burini said:

Leica's have their weaknesses ("all mechanical" implies complexity not simplicity).

Presuming you are addressing 'all mechanical' Leicas as those before which required a battery, how can you justify 'more complexity'?
I can return to address the issues snipped from you post which is a wealth of obscurity.

[Jon Glass]

1 hour ago, burini said:

...One can argue a premium vintage Japanese camera (in top shape) may be more robust and lot less hassle...

This was sort of what I had hoped to do, honestly.  My wife bought me a Pentax LX for Christmas a few years ago and it got me back into photography and film in particular.  The LX is a brilliant camera, but difficult to repair and with limited parts available, and almost all of them will eventually develop one of a few common problems over time.  My logical solution was to buy a second one, hoping I could cannibalize one to save the other in the long run when repairs became necessary.  Turns out that only works if you have access to a technician that can actually do that, and if both cameras don't have the same problems.  Fast forward a few years and I sold both to fund my MP.

I suppose from a cost standpoint, I could've bought 20 Pentax K1000s and gotten them all CLA'd and just used those for the rest of my life, throwing them away as they became unusable.  Still would've cost less than the MP and lenses, but there's no romance in that.

[Archiver]

3 hours ago, Jon Glass said:

I suppose from a cost standpoint, I could've bought 20 Pentax K1000s and gotten them all CLA'd and just used those for the rest of my life, throwing them away as they became unusable.  Still would've cost less than the MP and lenses, but there's no romance in that.

The romance of a camera for life is one of the things which drew me to Leica, even though I intellectually understand that the digital versions will probably not last as long as the film models. Even my M7 is subject to the pressures of age, due to circuitry which may or may not be more difficult to repair in years to come. The romantic desire of a camera for life is nudging me towards a MP or M-A, but that's a budgetary issue I'm setting aside for a lot later, haha. And if I buy something which I intend to have for the rest of my life, I'd want it somewhat customized, either an a la carte version or similar.

It's funny that @Jon Glass mentioned the Pentax LX, because I love the Pentax ME that Dad gave me, and I was thinking about what might be a good upgrade. The LX sounded great until I found out about the repair issues. Having said that, the Pentax ME is still working well since 1978 or thereabouts, so in theory, the ME could be my camera for life...

[a.noctilux]

Out of topic, Pentax LX that I used long time ago (before Leica R system), we have two (my wife and me ).

When some years ago, we wanted to take them out for photos, they (still) have the famous sticky mirror, so the rubber trouble as some old cameras have developped.

Alex Radu's description this very complex operation

Pentax MXs work better with easier seal replaced .

[oldwino]

I am currently shooting with a 1930 Leica I. It is doubtful that the original owner is still with us, and it seems, after a CLA, that the camera could just keep going indefinitely. Or at least, outlast me  

So this is a camera for two lifetimes, I’d say. 

[evikne]

I remember when I was a kid I often said to my parents: "If I can only have this toy, I will never ask for anything more …"

I'm afraid I still haven't changed much. 🙄

[Michael Hiles]

Seems to me there is no ideal/optimum solution.

I am put off by the M8 whose sensor cannot be repaired/replaced. And later sensors that apparently have “corrosion” issues. The statistics suggest that the “Mean Time to Failure” is not so encouraging. And failure seems to often mean unrepairable failure. And this does not include the likelihood that batteries will become unavailable and storage formats will become obsolete. Not a pretty picture.

My M2 and M3 work perfectly (after recent CLAs by Youxin Ye), and my sensors (Ilford XP2) are totally reliable and always new. And for all the hype, film is far from dead or dying. The materials for film users are as good as they have ever been. This is all in the context that I have and happily use a darkroom to make fine prints destined for mounting, matting, framing and a wall. I am aware that I am a minority who still values and practices the art and craft of making prints. Not for everyone, I know.

[spydrxx]

It sounds like you're increasingly leaning towards a Leica body, so I'll pitch a M4 or an M2 with a CLA, you won't regret either and it is unlikely, should you desire to sell at a later date, that you  would lose money ...and in the meantime you would have a master tool at your disposal. Because of eyesight issues, I've taken to the older Barnack LTM bodies with their telescopic rangefinders, but for a young healthy guy I'd go with the M models I mentioned. Digitals are great learning tools and fun with instant feedback, etc. but there is a feeling of something special and romance with non-electric film models IMHO.

[PaulJohn]

The Canon AE-1 was my first camera back in the late eighties. I still miss that split prism viewfinder and exposure needle. Lovely camera. The film M's have even more charm for me though. My M4 was almost 50 years old when I replaced it with an M-A which will most certainly out live me.

[Paulus]

Am 26.3.2019 um 22:53 schrieb Och:

I'm in my late 30s and shoot primarily digital with a Q. Recently I've gotten back (I say back because I used film cameras as a child and teenager) into film with a Canon A-E1P and have been enjoying it immensely. To the point where I was thinking I'd love to just have at least 1 film camera available to me for the rest of my life so I can shoot film when the urge hits. And when I'm thinking something that I'd want to last 40 years or so, my thought went to a Leica film camera. I'm primarily drawn to the M6 due to cost but also that it's relatively "modern" and I like that when I consider something I hope to keep for another 40 years. That and just 1 35mm lens, and I'd have all I need to shoot happily.

But then otoh, I can't imagine going primarily to film. For volume and workflow (I don't have intentions of developing my own film) I think digital is what works and will continue to work for me. So then I'm thinking for the outlay of a film M, why not just go digital? The lens outlay would be the same digital or film.  Digital cameras do theoretically have a shorter lifespan, but I'm seeing people using M8s that still work fine and those are approaching 15 years. Not crazy to think there will be plenty of 20 year old M8s that will be working just fine.  So I'm thinking even if I go digital M, the lens will be a lifetime purchase, and then if I'm lucky enough to have a body that lasts 20 years, I might only need to purchase 2 bodies my entire life.  So in that sense even digital doesn't seem too transient. If I do go digital the initial cost outlay will probably be more since I'd want a newer body if I want it to last 20 years, but that should be okay. And with a digital body I'll get a lot of the film shooting experience that seems kind of unique to M bodies. And I could shoot film with cheap Canon/Nikon bodies instead.

Anyways, these are my two conflicting chain of thoughts.  Would love to hear what the community would have to say...

The nice part is: You want to plan 20 years ahead.

I could never do that.

I bought a Leica MP new, traded  it in for a M9,

bought a new MP a la carte , traded it in for a M 240,  

and finally bought a used one, which has the same age than my first MP at the same price.

If I had not traded in, my first MP ( Serial No.2922673 . It must have a proud owner somewhere in Hong Kong by now. )

I would have had my live long ( actually 15 year ) companion. The digitals came and went. M8 ( Traded in an M6 titan ) , M9, M 240 and M 10. 

I have stopped trading or selling my MP  so that will be my live long camera I think, but who know for howe long? 

My advice to you: Start buying a the camera you like. Keep the camera you like, until you don't like it anymore and it will sort out itself which will be your long live camera. 

 

[a.noctilux]

I'd add (if not done before ? ) that each Leica (or another brand of course) can be used (or possessed in good shape to be used) for very long,

if regularly maintained by one or many good "doctor-repairer".

Some Leica built in 1920-30 * can be used as when newly released = almost one century old with "good maintenance" over that "long" period.

Those can be in good shape for years to come, I bet.

Examples exist for other gear too.

* I'm proud user of Leica I transformed to Leica II, first built in 1925-1926

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/13639-ltm-users-its-time-to-stand-up-and-be-counted/?do=findComment&comment=3380709

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still in good shape for use

[DaleG]

first choice - M3 + CLA ( Youxin Ye rec'd),

second choice - MP

third choice - M10-P

fourth choice - you already own.

enjoy! 

[RayD28]

I have an Olympus OM-2 and 50mm 1.4 and 28mm 3.5.  Also have the ttl flash.  All bought new in 1977.  All functional when I used them a few years ago.  I had an AE-1 before the Olympus but sold it because I liked smaller size of the Olympus system.   

BTW, I bought the OM-2 in the Army and it saw a lot of use and abuse on field exercises.  I personally am not afraid of film cameras with internal light meters.  

Edited August 3, 2019 by RayD28

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[Narsuitus]

On 3/26/2019 at 4:53 PM, Och said:

...I was thinking I'd love to just have at least 1 film camera available to me for the rest of my life so I can shoot film when the urge hits.

In my youth, I bought and used cameras that I hoped would last a lifetime. I favored mechanical/manual cameras over electronic/automatic cameras. Some of my favorite mechanical/manual cameras were:

Leica M1 35mm (no rangefinder and no built-in light meter)

Leica M6 35mm rangefinder (with built-in light meter)

Nikon F 35mm SLR with a standard meterless prism or meterless action finder

Nikon F2 35mm SLR with a standard meterless prism or meterless action finder

Nikon Nikonos III 35mm waterproof/underwater

Argus C3 35mm rangefinder

Canon QL17 GIII 35mm rangefinder (has a built-in light meter)

Minolta Hi-Matic 9 35mm rangefinder (has a built-in light meter)

Pentax Spotmatic 35mm SLR (has a built-in light meter)

Fujica ST705 35mm SLR (has a built-in light meter)

Mamiya C3 6x6cm medium format TLR

Mamiya C22 6x6cm medium format TLR

Mamiya C220 6x6cm medium format TLR

Mamiya RB67 6x7cm medium format SLR

Fuji 6x7cm medium format rangefinder

Fuji 6x9cm medium format rangefinder

Holga 120 panoramic camera

Holga 120WPC pinhole camera

Zero Image 6x9cm pinhole camera

Agfa Ansco Viking 6x9cm folding camera

Ansco Standard Speedex 6x6cm folding camera

Graflex 4x5 inch view camera

Calumet 4x5 inch view camera

With the exception of the Leica M1, Nikon F, and Mamiya TLR cameras, I still own and use all of these film cameras. These cameras will probably last the rest of my lifetime and will probably last longer than any of the electronic/automatic film and digital cameras that I am now using.