'Hopelist' for SL2

[caissa]

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Even if noise reduction is necessary, I see no reason why it could not be selectable. If a professional would want to apply it, wouldn’t it be more professional to get the “dark image” once and then apply this one to the maybe hundreds of images that are taken over the time of an astronomical session ? That would be a clever strategy (not all or nothing).

I had the impression that Hasselblad has implemented it in a similar way. So Leica should be able to live with this quality level.

Edited March 22, 2019 by caissa

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[pico]

49 minutes ago, caissa said:

Even if noise reduction is necessary, I see no reason why it could not be selectable. If a professional would want to apply it, wouldn’t it be more professional to get the “dark image” once and then apply this one to the maybe hundreds of images that are taken over the time of an astronomical session ? That would be a clever strategy (not all or nothing).

I had the impression that Hasselblad has implemented it in a similar way. So Leica should be able to live with this quality level.

I wonder if Leica is concerned that users would push the limit with too long or too many long exposures in series, thereby dangerously overheating the system.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

There is an assumption from some that the Q2 sensor will be the same as the one in the SL2 ...... but I have my doubts .....

I hope you’re right and that they improve on it. The assumption about “same” relates to pixel design and DR and ISO performance that go along with it. 

vor 2 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

By contrast Leica used specific design features in the SL to minimise the issues with M lenses ..... such as shallow wells and micro lens configuration that maximises light capture.

Obviously, the Q2 sensor will be modified for use with M lenses. That’s what Leica did with the Q sensor. And then they used it in the SL. See Andreas Juergensen’s interview with Stefan Daniel from 2015 on the SL sensor starting at 2:50 here: https://www.fototv.de/tutorial/fototvnews-die-neue-leica-sl-als-wurdiger-nachfolger  [My translation]: “ The pixel design or the basis of the sensor is the same as in the Q. However it was tweaked for..." The video then shows an SL with an M lens mounted and Stefan Daniel continues, I remember well, “M lenses.”  Stefan Daniel doesn’t mention anything about improved DR in the SL sensor over the Q. But it’s possible. Again, I hope you’re right.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

I would be surprised if they used the same sensor as the Lumix S1R .....

The S1R sensor is 8368 x 5584 and the Q2 sensor is 8368 x 5584. It’s possible that they are sourced from different suppliers but highly unlikely that two different companies just so happened to design FF image sensors of dimensions 8368 x 5584 and brought them to the market in 2019. But, I guess, your point is, while the basis for the SL2 sensor might be the same, it will be improved.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

...and astonished if they sacrificed DR and noise for extra resolution.

This is your strongest argument and makes me doubt my logic a bit. It goes against the philosophy and values of Leica. They didn’t do this with the M10 nor with the S3.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

I also can't see FF IBIS fitting into the current SL form factor, having looked at the innards of the S1R. 

Dr. Kaufmann said the SL2 will be more elegant, not equally slim as the SL. If they don’t put IBIS into the SL2, they will sell exactly five cameras. Because I just picked up an S1, that everyone seems to forget about, for €2,500, and it comes with IBIS, large pixels, and excellent low light DR performance BTW. The SL2 will be something like €7,000. I’m not interested in the S1R but would like to compare the DR, low light performance.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Chaemono

[LocalHero1953]

Certainly if the SL2 comes with 47Mp and no IBIS, the S1 (not R) would start to break down even my dislike of button-fest bodies. I look forward to your comments on the S1.

A more 'elegant' design can mean a lot of things. I might live with a slightly fatter body to accommodate IBIS (but perhaps with the same RH grip size), but I'd like to see the EVF hump flattened and smoothed as per X1D (or eliminated), and I'd like it to be lighter. I don't notice the body weight with the zooms, but IMO it's a discouragement to using dainty M lenses on the SL.

Edited March 22, 2019 by LocalHero1953

[mmradman]

56 minutes ago, pico said:

I wonder if Leica is concerned that users would push the limit with too long or too many long exposures in series, thereby dangerously overheating the system.

Ah, that would be Ikarus edition.

[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb LocalHero1953:

I look forward to your comments on the S1.

My initial thoughts are that ISO 1600 on the S1 is ISO 800 on the SL (not quite but very close). So, the SL is almost one stop brighter which negates the low light performance of the S1. I’ll post two pictures and links to two RAW files in a bit. Waiting for the battery to charge so I can transfer the files via USB. I also took a number of shots in high contrast scenes without knowing this initially and the SL does really well. I don’t see that the S1 handles scenes of dark Shadows and extreme Highlights better than the SL. Anyway, the S1 sensor doesn’t have those aspherical microlenses that supposedly direct light into the pixels and the deep photodiodes as the S1R does. And its strength lies more in video, I guess. 

[Chaemono]

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Okay, so here are the two pictures and links to the RAW files. These here are from Preview exported as TIFFs untouched so I could size them for LUF compression in LR. The SL picture is slightly cropped. I tried to frame them identically for some reason it didn't work. But it doesn't make a difference. S1 ISO 1600 is ISO 800 on the SL in these which kind of sucks.

S1 + 75 Summicron-SL. Opened in Preview and exported as TIFF then exported as JPEG from LR. Not touched. S1 RAW file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g1034229824-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=DURGMokCte1hAg-WfeDGrR2i-hOVtcTH8burSYIz7lk=

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ISO 1600 f/2 @1/80 sec.

 

SL + 75 Summicron-SL. Opened in Preview and exported as TIFF then exported as JPEG from LR. Slightly cropped to match frame above, otherwise not touched. SL RAW file here: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g720381739-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=xsbr0zCbLSIuuVzo1HzfF2Ezem0O9BOtQW0Onb2tjWY=

ISO 800 f/2 @1/80 sec.

[Jon Warwick]

My main wish for an SL2 is to have "high resolution modes", just like the S1R.

Based on samples i've seen from the S1R, the high resolution mode seems to be a bigger benefit to image quality (no false colour, no moire, no bayer filter blur) than simply going from 24mp --> 47mp in "regular" mode....

[Chaemono]

My biggest wish for the SL2 is that they use a different sensor than the one in the Q2 or the S1/R. I’ll do more comparisons today with the SL and the S1 and start another thread on it. But based on everything I’ve seen so far, the S1 sensor doesn’t have better DR nor less noise at high ISO than the SL which uses a four year old sensor. The S1R noise is even worse than the S1 as everyone reports. I hope Leica is aware of this.

Edit - I just canceled my order for the S1R.

Edited March 23, 2019 by Chaemono

[Bob Andersson]

At 3m 35s into his Q2 review (link) Chris refers to the battery as being the same as in the SL series of cameras. So it's official: the SL2 uses the same battery as the SL. 🤣

Wouldn't it be nice to think that this slip of the tongue is due to DPReview already having an SL2 for testing under an NDA. Yep, I'm a dreamer. 🙂

[Agent M10]

4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

My biggest wish for the SL2 is that they use a different sensor than the one in the Q2 or the S1/R. I’ll do more comparisons today with the SL and the S1 and start another thread on it. But based on everything I’ve seen so far, the S1 sensor doesn’t have better DR nor less noise at high ISO than the SL which uses a four year old sensor. The S1R noise is even worse than the S1 as everyone reports. I hope Leica is aware of this.

Edit - I just canceled my order for the S1R.

Maybe sensor technology topped out in real terms just a few years ago. The Hasselblad X1D and Pentax 645D still hold the highest DXO ratings with the Nikon 850 right behind. If what you're saying with the S1R is true, then I guess Leica sticking to 24 MP with its larger pixels for so long was a brilliant move. Anyway, thanks for your input. I'm taking my SL out this week and am still pretty happy with it. 

[caissa]

I’m surprised that there is so much concern with DR. I use several cameras with different DR and in the end I see no difference in the actual images (no wonder, prints or screen images have a much lower DR).

So I also think the sensor is probably ok. (Differences expressed as percentages are very small). And would also wish the SL2 to have the ability to take high res images. Which includes IBIS.

And the X1D has exactly the same DR as as 3 other cameras, so it is sharing first place. And the difference to the next few cameras is tiny. (Simply invisible in daily use). This is just a marketing instrument for people with no mathematical background.

Edited March 23, 2019 by caissa

[Chaemono]

vor 21 Stunden schrieb thighslapper:

There is an assumption from some that the Q2 sensor will be the same as the one in the SL2 ...... but I have my doubts .....

The Q has a fixed lens and I would have expected Leica to have made the optics sensor friendly ..... so within reason they can use any off the shelf sensor with minor modifications. 

I would be surprised if they used the same sensor as the Lumix S1R ..... and astonished if they sacrificed DR and noise for extra resolution. 

@Agent M10 No, I don’t think so. I hope thighslapper is on to something. Q2 and S1R sensor may not be the one Leica will use for the SL2. 

[Agent M10]

36 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

@Agent M10 No, I don’t think so. I hope thighslapper is on to something. Q2 and S1R sensor may not be the one Leica will use for the SL2. 

 My point was that now you have a 2019 S1R and a 2019 Q2 and I don't question that both Leica and Panasonic are stretching sensor limits as far as they can go at the moment.. Sure, it'd be thrilling to see the SL2 with some kind of 60MP+ sensor that is noiseless up to 10K ISO. But I think we would have seen something like that by now. 

Edited March 23, 2019 by Agent M10

[Chaemono]

vor 26 Minuten schrieb Agent M10:

 My point was that now you have a 2019 S1R and a 2019 Q2 and I don't question that both Leica and Panasonic are stretching sensor limits as far as they can go at the moment.. Sure, it'd be thrilling to see the SL2 with some kind of 60MP+ sensor that is noiseless up to 10K ISO. But I think we would have seen something like that by now. 

My point is that I also have access to an α7R III and a Z7 and I know what FF state of the art DR and low light performance looks like and it ain’t what’s in those Panasonic bodies. I hope Leica knows, too. 

[Chaemono]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb caissa:

I’m surprised that there is so much concern with DR. I use several cameras with different DR and in the end I see no difference in the actual images (no wonder, prints or screen images have a much lower DR).

S1 ISO 12800 is ISO 6400 on the SL but the S1 has better DR and produces cleaner image at ISO 12800 than the SL does at ISO 6400. Just looking at them. The SL sensor is four years old, so it’s not surprising. Also, the S1 files are more malleable, show no banding when Shadows and Exposure are lifted. At lower ISO levels the S1 DR advantage isn’t there, though, because the SL is definitely one stop brighter. It just that the SL starts to suck at ISO 6400 and above. So, Panasonic did a good job with the S1 sensor, at least. ISO 12800 very useable with nice DR. 

[thighslapper]

I’m afraid one stop difference in DR isn’t going to have me pulling my hair out processing images ....... if the scenes were contrasty I’d have been bracketing or using grad filters...... and the comparisons at high ISO ignore the contribution of IBIS ....... out last night with the SR1 + 75/2 SL I never went above iso 200 ...... just set to manual with 1/6 sec and go ........ so I very much doubt I will using the extremes where any differences exist. I have no doubt Sony does all this better ..... but I have my doubts that, for stills photography at least, it makes a great deal of practical difference. 

For me the main point of the S1R is the fact I can use Leica L mount lenses with greater flexibility due to IBIS and at greater resolution .... and with few drawbacks ........ except possibly having to read the 500 page manual to discover the obscure features I DON’T WANT TO activate accidentally .... 🙄

Edited March 27, 2019 by thighslapper

[Chaemono]

Sure, but if your speculation that Leica will use a sensor with better DR in the SL2 than the S1R’s comes true, I suspect you’ll be the first one to switch. Provided the SL2 has IBIS.

Edit - I’m not sure Sony files are better for pp. I’ll mount the same lens on the S1 and the α7R III and check for recovery of details in Highlights and Shadows. I suspect the S1 files are more malleable. 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Chaemono

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[Agent M10]

This would be pretty interesting: a different Bayer array in the SL2.

[Chaemono]

One thing there is no information about is the sensor. I tried to find out whether the SL2 will be an S1R clone or use the Q2 sensor. No comment. I would have expected some hint that it will use the Q2 sensor by now. Thighslapper’s intuition may turn out to be correct. They weren’t so coy about a couple of the other features that the SL2 will have.