Is the S1/S1R a good backup camera for SL

[jonoslack]

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Just for the sake of completeness

if what you say is strictly true then it would be clear that a lens which is sharp on the Canon 1DS mkII wouldn't be sharp on a Canon 6D . . . (for instance)

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[jonoslack]

26 minutes ago, Nordvik said:

https://wordpress.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/the-glass-in-the-path-sensor-stacks-and-adapted-lenses/

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/06/sensor-stack-thickness-when-does-it-matter/

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2014/07/sensor-stack-thickness-part-iii-the-summary/

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2015/01/a-thinner-sensor-stack/

Thank you so much for posting these - really interesting, and I've certainly learned a lot. 

Everyone interested should read them. 

[BernardC]

38 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

if what you say is strictly true then it would be clear that a lens which is sharp on the Canon 1DS mkII wouldn't be sharp on a Canon 6D . . . (for instance)

The 1DS mkII had a full-frame 16 MP sensor, and it was meant for SLR (EF) lenses that have a long back-focus distance (because of the mirror box). When it came out, most existing Canon lenses had been designed for film use, which has no cover glass.

In other words, yes. There is a difference, but the difference wasn't as important when 16MP sensors were state-of-the-art. We know now that many lenses that seemed OK on those sensors aren't OK on 50+ MP sensors.

I notice that the later cameras converge to one number for each brand, within .1 mm or so.

 

The interesting thing is the difference between the M8 and M9. We know that Leica had to do a lot of re-engineering and soul-searching for the M9. This difference alone shows how far they had to push the technology forward to get the results they wanted. For the M8 they used the thinnest cover glass they could get away with (or so they thought), and cropped the sensor to cover only the center of the image. That's basically the same thing that medium format backs did to deal with technical cameras. For the M9 they went with a thicker glass, but completely re-thought how they dealt with of-axis rays, notably with offset aspherical microlenses. They were fighting for the future of the company; drastic measures were justified. Even with all that, they still had to provide firmware correction for each lens they had ever produced! It's not an elegant solution, but they made it seamless enough for the end-user (provided you had your lenses 6-bit coded).

[jonoslack]

Hi Bernard

Of course, the refractive index of the cover glass is also an issue (whereas with M lenses it really is mostly down to the thickness). Still - I have pretty firm information that the coverglass thickness on the S1 is different from the 1.5 of the SL (not 4mm or anything like that). If you have read the excellent articles that Nordvik linked to on Lens Rentals it's obvious that there are a number of factors (the Kolari mod is very effective with M lenses without noticeably affecting performance on Sony lenses for instance). The exit pupils on the L mount lenses are not that close to the sensor, so there is unlikely to be much of an effect (they're probably reasonably telecentric as well - one of the advantages of having a large lens mount).

It's just a pity that when lens-rentals chose to test M lenses they picked the 35 f1.4 (which doesn't behave too badly with thicker cover glass) and the 24 f1.4 which behaves very well (like it's 21mm and 28mm siblings) It would have been much more interesting if they had chosen a 28 'cron (or a 50 'lux come to that). 

I don't imagine that the S1 and S1r will pick up the 6-bit coding either (although I really have no information on this). 

At any rate - I'm trying hard to get hold of one to test, but I'm not expecting the S1 to work as well with M lenses as the SL - but I'm very confident it'll work extremely well with SL and TL lenses.

All the best (interesting discussion)

[farnz]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

For the M9 they went with a thicker glass, but completely re-thought how they dealt with of-axis rays, notably with offset aspherical microlenses.

For info, the M8's Kodak KAF-10500 sensor has off-set micro-lenses like the M9's Kodak KAF-18500 sensor.  No real difference other than the M9's sensor having a bit more real estate.

Pete.

[jonoslack]

15 minutes ago, farnz said:

For info, the M8's Kodak KAF-10500 sensor has off-set micro-lenses like the M9's Kodak KAF-18500 sensor.  No real difference other than the M9's sensor having a bit more real estate.

Pete.

I think  you're right Pete - the big difference was with the M240 and the design of the micro lenses I think (but I'm not certain ) that the M10 has 1mm coverglass 

[jaapv]

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AFAIK, the M8 had a 0.5 mm IR filter, the M9 0,8, the M240 0.7 mm. The M10 I do not know.

[thighslapper]

3 hours ago, jonoslack said:

At any rate - I'm trying hard to get hold of one to test, but I'm not expecting the S1 to work as well with M lenses as the SL - but I'm very confident it'll work extremely well with SL and TL lenses.

All the best (interesting discussion)

Just had an email that Panasonic are shipping on friday and UK stock should be available mid next week...... so we should all know fairly soon. 

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, jonoslack said:

If you have read the excellent articles that Nordvik linked to on Lens Rentals it's obvious that there are a number of factors (the Kolari mod is very effective with M lenses without noticeably affecting performance on Sony lenses for instance).

Those articles were very influential when they came out. They explained a phenomenon that many people had encountered; in an easy-to-understand way. Before that, lots of internet experts would confidently tell you that "Leica lenses are terrible, they are only sharp in the center...they do that because of the rangefinder" (or something to that effect). Their proof was pictures of brick walls, taken with Sony cameras. Obviously, the reason why the M9 only has 18 megapixels is because the 24 megapixels of the mighty A7 was too much for M lenses...

We were all younger then!

I am keen to find-out how the S1 performs, especially with video. I doubt that Panasonic will have bothered to write custom firmware-level correction routines for all 6-bit M lenses, but you never know. All it takes is one M fanatic in Panasonic's employ, and a lot of time... There's no shortage of Leica fanatics in the Japan, so that half of the equation is looking good.

I am sure that the Panasonics, and future Sigmas, will work fine with SL lenses. There is no way that those companies would shoot themselves in the foot. Can you imagine if , for instance, the Panasonic 50/1.4 was great on the S1, but not on the SL, and conversely the Summilux-SL wasn't as good on the S1? The only winners from that debacle would be Canon, Nikon, and Sony.

 

[jonoslack]

2 hours ago, thighslapper said:

Just had an email that Panasonic are shipping on friday and UK stock should be available mid next week...... so we should all know fairly soon. 

Well, we will if anybody bothers to do a proper comparison at a proper distance. 

[thighslapper]

1 hour ago, jonoslack said:

Well, we will if anybody bothers to do a proper comparison at a proper distance. 

yes ..... and doing a full range of meaningful comparisons under identical conditions can be difficult, frustrating and time consuming, as I have found out to my cost in the past ..... 

[caissa]

Currently the discussion about the quality of M lenses on the Lumix S cameras is still on. But for me (I am quite confident about the IQ of the special M lenses that I typically use.) it is maybe even more interessting how the Sigma lenses will be on the S1R and also on the SL.
Especially the latest lenses of the Sigma range seem to be of a special type of quality - despite their low price in comparison with the Leica SL Summicrons. The latest lenses that look interesting to me are the (enormously big) 1.4/105, the "strange" 1.4/40, which is not so terribly big and can be used instead of a 35 or a 50 (that's why I call it strange). And by far the most interesting for me is the 1.4/28mm Art. As this closes a gap that is there for me since the days of the R system. (The 3 Ms f2.8, f2.0 and f1.4) are excellent, but not very close focusing).
Of course we all know that the Otus 1.4/28 is a phantastic lens, albeit at a big price in weight and money and without AF. And the new 1.4/28 Art seems to be even better, if we can believe what Roger Cicala from lens rentals found out in his comparison of MTFs  of the latest Sigma Art lenses. If I imagine this near-perfect lens with the corresponding in-camera correction functions, then I have possibly a problem (chosing rather the 28 Summicron SL or the also quite handy Art lens ?).  

Here the link:  https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2019/03/mtf-results-for-recent-sigma-art-lenses/

To be unbiased, one has to add that the MTFs of the latest Apo Summicron-SL 35 Asph. lens are even better. (at a slightly reduced aperture and a slightly higher price point ).

Edited March 8, 2019 by caissa

[thighslapper]

Until received a 75/2 SL, the 135/1.8 Sigma Art was the sharpest lens I had ever used ...... which it ought to be considering the size and weight  .

AF with the adapter is ok ...... very accurate but a bit clunky and often needs a double focus to lock on if the subject is a long way from the previous one. 

When Sigma start retrofitting L mounts I will get it modified ..... it is far too good to part with. 

[caissa]

Are you planning to test the MC-21 adapter ? It supports correction functions, that could even slightly increase the IQ of this lens. And is maybe/probably more reliable than the (relatively dumb) Novoflex adapter. (Maybe also a bit less noisy).

Are you using the EOS or the Nikon mount ? (The MC-21 is only for eos and sigma mount)

Edited March 9, 2019 by caissa

[thighslapper]

I doubt if the adapter will be available for a good while and the 135/1.8 is the only Sigma lens I have......  and I have no particular desire for any others. In Nikon mount it works OK, but was non functional with the EOS novolflex adapter. 

I did consider Sigma for astrophotography ...... but to be honest the most sensible option is to get a slower optically better lens and pair it with a sky tracker ... they are not that big or expensive and free you from the limitations of short exposure times.

Anyway, the whole point of sticking to SL/CL/SR1 is to avoid adapters as much as possible. I'm even glad that Leica are keeping all the SL zooms and primes with only two filter sizes as I'm fed up with multiple adapter rings ..... the same with chargers and other things ..... why can't they just stick to one type of USB connector and 5v. Different cables, plugs, adapters, voltages... aaarhgh !! ..... I feel a rant coming on so I had better shut up  ....... 

[caissa]

A short video about high res mode with S1R for landscape (from Patagonia).  

 

[Chaemono]

Amazing technology. I don’t do landscapes but if I did, I’d upsize the files with ON1 Resize to 360 MPx and I could shoot Russia, from Alaska. 🤣

[farnz]

1 hour ago, Chaemono said:

Amazing technology. I don’t do landscapes but if I did, I’d upsize the files with ON1 Resize to 360 MPx and I could shoot Russia, from Alaska. 🤣

The only problem is that they might shoot back ... 😄

Pete.

[ron777]

2 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Amazing technology. I don’t do landscapes but if I did, I’d upsize the files with ON1 Resize to 360 MPx and I could shoot Russia, from Alaska. 🤣

ON1 and similar upsizing software essentially clone existing data by virtue of their proprietary algorithms, the in-camera technology described above, however, derives a larger file from the data accumulated via multiple image acquisitions, the result of which should be far superior to that produced by upsizing software.  Whether or not that holds true remains to be seen, but logically, it should bear fruit. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by ron777

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Hallo,

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[Chaemono]

It will be interesting to compare but it's impressive what one can do with 24 MPx files and ON1. I took the ones in the link here today with the VE 24-90 at one of its sweet spot, 35 mm 'wide open.' I upsized the JPEGs to 54 MPx. The amount of detail in the eye of the mask is amazing.

https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-NG336Z/