Flyer Posted January 25, 2019 Share #1 Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) Advertisement (gone after registration) I need help and my doctor doesn't know what to advise 😂😂😂😂😂. I really want to get into the Leica world but I am not making a purchase decision easy. I almost pulled the trigger on an M10 but bailed because I was unsure if I would like the rangefinder experience. My main photography is Wildlife and nature and a bit of Landscape but at 58yr my days of getting up at 4am for a sunrise are well behind me. So it's mainly Travel and urban stuff I would use this camera for. (see my flikr below) So my dilemma is I have a budget of only 7k and was looking at the M10 or SL with a 35mm. The SL has lots of features I have been used to in the DSLR/Mirrorless world, but it seams a shame to use only manual focus lenses and lose out on the AF capabilities and IS etc. I know the solution is the 24-90 but thats just far too big and heavy, so just on that bases should I rule the SL out? I am NOT looking for this to cover Wildlife/BIF I have a Nikon D5 and 200-500 for that. The M10 looks to be the most suItable, but I guess I would need the Vioflex during the transition to the rangefinder process? I know you can adapt lenses via an EOS adaptor but "do you realy put Canon glass on a Leica"!!!? If I was to design the perfect camera for "me" it would be a QP with changeable lenses, so I need to think what is nearest to that? In the world on Leica 7k is peanuts, so it would probably be one on the following. SL with 35mm 2.5 Summarit (Body £4000 + Lens £1600) + EOS adaptor and a suItable walkabout zoom lens. M10 with Voightlander 35mm (Body £5300 + Lens £700) + A 50mm The Q is out because I don't think I can live with just a 28mm! Also posted on M10 thread. https://www.flickr.com/photos/eazypix/ Edited January 25, 2019 by Flyer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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pgk Posted January 25, 2019 Share #2 Posted January 25, 2019 2 minutes ago, Flyer said: I almost pulled the trigger on an M10 but bayled because I was unsure if I would like the rangefinder experience. If you buy a used digital M and decide that you don't like RF cameras then you will lose a great deal less than if you buy a new M10 and sell it. If you are seriously interested in trying a dRF then talk to a dealer - you might well be able to swing a deal whereby you buy an older camera and have a known trade in (as long as its in the same condition as when you bought it) within a specified time, against an M10. I've used RF cameras for 40 years so know their and my limitations with them, but they can be an acquired taste and blowing £7k without knowing whether you will like using them or will get on with them, seems a bit enthusiastic to be honest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share #3 Posted January 25, 2019 1 minute ago, pgk said: If you buy a used digital M and decide that you don't like RF cameras then you will lose a great deal less than if you buy a new M10 and sell it. If you are seriously interested in trying a dRF then talk to a dealer - you might well be able to swing a deal whereby you buy an older camera and have a known trade in (as long as its in the same condition as when you bought it) within a specified time, against an M10. I've used RF cameras for 40 years so know their and my limitations with them, but they can be an acquired taste and blowing £7k without knowing whether you will like using them or will get on with them, seems a bit enthusiastic to be honest. Sorry just edited my thread as I posted it prematurely by mistake Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom0511 Posted January 25, 2019 Share #4 Posted January 25, 2019 Ever thought about a CL instead? The size is more like the M10 but with (nearly) the flexibility of the SL. It also would allow you to stay in the budget and still get another lens later if you want. If I was shooting just manually and only 35mm it would be the M10 over the SL hands down for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
earleygallery Posted January 25, 2019 Share #5 Posted January 25, 2019 If I was to design the perfect camera for "me" it would be a QP with changeable lenses, so I need to think what is nearest to that? I think you're confusing yourself (and me, I thought you'd already swapped the M for an SL). Nearest to a 'QP with changeable lenses' is probably the CL. You could buy that with the standard and tele zooms. Otherwise maybe it's simply that Leica doesn't offer you the best solution for your needs and you should look elsewhere? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
grahamhoey Posted January 25, 2019 Share #6 Posted January 25, 2019 Agree with prior post. Try the TL, their 18-56 in a great walkaround lens and their 35 1.4 (50mm equivalent) is exceptional. If you think the Q is perfect then it seems you want AF and ability to MF. Only difference is CL isn’t full frame but IQ is imperceptibly different, lots of threads on that. If full frame is essential try the SL with the summicron (only 75 and 90 for now) but 35 and 50 coming. Much smaller and lighter than the SL zooms. Also SL is great with M lenses with the focus peaking and magnification. SL is also great with th TL lenses if you can live with 10mp. I have the CL and SL, had the Q but didn’t like the fixed focal length either. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Q Posted January 25, 2019 Share #7 Posted January 25, 2019 Advertisement (gone after registration) Although I love my M10-P, I prefer a EVF over a rangefinder nowadays. The only reason I put up with it are my M lenses which work best on a M body. If I were starting from scratch, I'd go straight to mirrorless. My favorite Leica digital camera is the Q btw. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
EddieCheddar Posted January 25, 2019 Share #8 Posted January 25, 2019 Hey now. Here’s my story: I started with a Leica Q, and used that for a couple of years — great camera. I then sold it and upgraded to the M10 with a .35 lens — that system made me a way better photographer. I used the M10 for a year and loved it. However, I noticed that I spent more time concentrating on “focusing’ via the range finder and VisoFlex (I’m 54, and wear contacts) instead of concentrating on exposure, composure, et cetera. So, I sold the M10, and got the SL which I use with my .35 lens, and the SL 24-90. The M10 is way ‘cooler’ and may be a tad more fun to use. The SL is awesome in every way, and there are zero issues with focusing via the EVF. Manual lenses on the SL are great, and fun to use. Manual focusing via the range finder became more of a burden for me. Maybe you can “try’” and SL out via a Leica store for 24 hours? Hope that helps some. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeff S Posted January 25, 2019 Share #9 Posted January 25, 2019 Or rent... https://www.lensrentals.com/rent/cameras/photo/leica Jeff 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanndoktorn Posted January 25, 2019 Share #10 Posted January 25, 2019 31 minutes ago, EddieCheddar said: Hey now. Here’s my story: I started with a Leica Q, and used that for a couple of years — great camera. I then sold it and upgraded to the M10 with a .35 lens — that system made me a way better photographer. I used the M10 for a year and loved it. However, I noticed that I spent more time concentrating on “focusing’ via the range finder and VisoFlex (I’m 54, and wear contacts) instead of concentrating on exposure, composure, et cetera. So, I sold the M10, and got the SL which I use with my .35 lens, and the SL 24-90. The M10 is way ‘cooler’ and may be a tad more fun to use. The SL is awesome in every way, and there are zero issues with focusing via the EVF. Manual lenses on the SL are great, and fun to use. Manual focusing via the range finder became more of a burden for me. Maybe you can “try’” and SL out via a Leica store for 24 hours? Hope that helps some. I have both the M10 and the SL and can definitely recommend the SL experience with a manual 35mm if you would like to prioritise user friendliness. The SL EVF is unbeatable when it comes to nailing focus on manual lenses IMHO 🙂 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
celticursa Posted January 25, 2019 Share #11 Posted January 25, 2019 I highly recommend you take a look at the Nikon Z6/7 before you jump to Leica...significantly better image quality than the SL ( and yes, I have owned and compared both systems). As for the M10, be sure you are comfortable with your ability to focus the M RF...my older (than your) eyes don't let me do that any longer, so I was delighted when Nikon introduced the Z6/7 system last year. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
verwackelt Posted January 25, 2019 Share #12 Posted January 25, 2019 vor 47 Minuten schrieb celticursa: I highly recommend you take a look at the Nikon Z6/7 before you jump to Leica...significantly better image quality than the SL ( and yes, I have owned and compared both systems). As for the M10, be sure you are comfortable with your ability to focus the M RF...my older (than your) eyes don't let me do that any longer, so I was delighted when Nikon introduced the Z6/7 system last year. I am interested in a comparison of that cameras by one perseon who own both systems. Did you compare the Z and the SL with the same Lens? what kind of better quality were the Z-files? Sharpness? Colour? Dynamik Range? thanks in advance... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesL Posted January 25, 2019 Share #13 Posted January 25, 2019 9 hours ago, Flyer said: 😂😂😂😂😂 So it's mainly Travel and urban stuff I would use this camera for. (see my flikr below) https://www.flickr.com/photos/eazypix/ You have lots of bird in the field - have you really given that up? A rangefinder is far more challenging than a camera with AF and suited to telephoto lenses. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
celticursa Posted January 25, 2019 Share #14 Posted January 25, 2019 3 hours ago, verwackelt said: I am interested in a comparison of that cameras by one perseon who own both systems. Did you compare the Z and the SL with the same Lens? what kind of better quality were the Z-files? Sharpness? Colour? Dynamik Range? thanks in advance... My comparisons were all @50-58mm: Nikkor 58/1.2 Noct, Nikon 50/1.8 S, Summicron-M 50/2 ASPH, Summilux-M 50/1.4 ASPH, Noctilux 50/0.95 and Summilux-SL 50/1.4. I used Leica M-F + Nikon FTZ adapters to mount the M-lenses to the Z7, Leica M-SL adapter to mount the M-lenses to the SL, and the Nikon FTZ adapter to mount the Noct to the Z7...lots of mixing and matching The M-lenses on the SL were IMO just OK in sharpness but clearly not up to what those lenses can produce on my M240, especially off-center and edge crispness. The M-lenses on the Z7 were only acceptable at best even in the center, again in comparison to those same lenses on my M240. in the special case of the Nocf on the Z7+FT Z/Nocf on my D850 vs. the Noctilux on the M240, I much preferred the Nocf to the Noctilux from F1.2 and above. It became obvious the Noctilux was not worth keeping to cover the 0.95-1.2 aperture range where my ability to focus my M240 is virtually non-existent now. Your MMV depending on your eyesight. The preceding is entirely regarding sharpness. Where the rubber meets the road is the Z7+50/1.8 S vs. SL+Summilux SL 50/1.4...that is, native AF lens vs. native AF lens. The Z7 has twice the MPXs of the SL and it shows up consistently with significantly sharper images from the Z7. In addition, the AF speed and dynamic range of Z7 is vastly superior...in my subjective view, at least 3 stops higher. Lastly, color is a very personal subjective issue...everyone has their preferences. While Leica SL color leaves nothing on the table, I prefer Nikon color. I have been a Nikon shooter for a very long time and during those years I have owned Leica film RFs and Leicaflex SLRs and have always preferred Nikon color. Pretty lengthy post so I’ll stop now and hope the above is useful. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
verwackelt Posted January 25, 2019 Share #15 Posted January 25, 2019 Thank you for sharing your experience. I am very curious how a coming SL2 will compete with the Z7. The sensors must be the same size and generation... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thighslapper Posted January 25, 2019 Share #16 Posted January 25, 2019 (edited) Entering Leica land with a limited budget is going to bring you nothing but trouble. That basically rules out the M10 and SL ...... even if you go second-hand. No point getting an expensive body and then not being able to afford the best lenses. The Leica experience is all about simplifying the photographic experience, ergonomics and top quality optics. You can do that with a T, TL, X-Vario, Q or a CL. All yield top quality images and are great cameras to use ..... plus eminently portable and reasonably affordable. My personal choice would be a CL and gradually add what you can ..... anything will work well on it ...... even lenses not from Leica's top drawer .....as the cropped sensor avoids some of the issues older M lenses have on FF cameras. Leica lenses are built to last ..... even cheaper, knocked about copies will give you years of good service. Edited January 25, 2019 by thighslapper 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share #17 Posted January 25, 2019 6 hours ago, Tanndoktorn said: I have both the M10 and the SL and can definitely recommend the SL experience with a manual 35mm if you would like to prioritise user friendliness. The SL EVF is unbeatable when it comes to nailing focus on manual lenses IMHO 🙂 m 2 hours ago, CharlesL said: You have lots of bird in the field - have you really given that up? A rangefinder is far more challenging than a camera with AF and suited to telephoto lenses. As I said in my thread I use a Nikon D5 and 200-500 for that, I only want the Leica for travel etc. Cheers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flyer Posted January 25, 2019 Author Share #18 Posted January 25, 2019 33 minutes ago, thighslapper said: Entering Leica land with a limited budget is going to bring you nothing but trouble. That basically rules out the M10 and SL ...... even if you go second-hand. No point getting an expensive body and then not being able to afford the best lenses. The Leica experience is all about simplifying the photographic experience, ergonomics and top quality optics. You can do that with a T, TL, X-Vario, Q or a CL. All yield top quality images and are great cameras to use ..... plus eminently portable and reasonably affordable. My personal choice would be a CL and gradually add what you can ..... anything will work well on it ...... even lenses not from Leica's top drawer .....as the cropped sensor avoids some of the issues older M lenses have on FF cameras. Leica lenses are built to last ..... even cheaper, knocked about copies will give you years of good service. Good points, in particular the limited budget. Is it justifiable to send 7k on a one lens system? Maybe I am asking too much for the money I have. Cheers for your advise Flyer Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
CharlesL Posted January 25, 2019 Share #19 Posted January 25, 2019 Rangefinder focus comes quickly for most people. If you want a Leica for the compositional feature of a rangefinder - framelines within a wider view - then you want an M camera. If you want a Leica to use M-mount lenses, there is the SL for full frame, the CL and Fuji X camera for APS-C. I've used Leica lenses on all of these but the CL, and they have worked just fine, dark warnings about sensor microlenses and cover glass to the contrary. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donzo98 Posted January 26, 2019 Share #20 Posted January 26, 2019 I would say get the CL + 23 F2, closest thing to an interchangeable lens Q. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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