Leica M-D or M10-D?

[littlelio]

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Hi guys, first post here.

I am not a Leica owner now but look forward to. After M10-P, I saw M10-D, which is without a LCD screen, and I think it is a perfect Leica now. So after years of hesitation, finally I think I may move on to Leica.

A very short introduction to myself, I am full photogaphy professional and mainly use Nikon, and also I am into Fuji. After pressinging shutter releases so many times, I need something special to continue my photography love or I may lose the sense of taking picture. For work, taking photos and staring at LCD makes me sick, and not necessary. The ISO/F-number/Shutter time is enough really, especially we are in dark environment, where the AF system is totally failing. I want to find something for myself - not the work - to purely record life. (and of course some nice landscape photos related to work would be great)

I like the Wifi idea in M10-D, to have some option - for emergency situation. But I hate the fake advance lever... the sensor in M-D is quite smilar, except for high-iso performance. I don't mind the thickness difference. However, I do like the Visoflex possibility with M10-D for critical focusing, and focus peaking. Some additional assistances will not harm, and I like to have choices.

Now I am looking at an M-D + a used 35 summicron which is at the same price of M10-D body only.

I have searched around in the forum, and people love M-D. Perhaps the reason is they have owned it, but anyway I am glad so many experience Leica owner here! Anyway comment is appreciated.

Oh, M60 is nice but maybe too much for me. and there is no strap holder...

Thanks!

Leon

[chasdfg]

I don't own either but the M10D is currently my dream camera. For context I am an M240 owner.

The M-D didn't turn my head the way the M10D did because I rely on liveview on the M240 far more than I would like to admit. I view the EVF option on the M10D as a safety net of sorts, in that if I need it i can always put it on, yet because there is no LCD I can wean myself off my occasional liveview use. The EVF capability will also allow me to use the M10D for paid work, in that while the camera won't display images for clients to view off an LCD screen, I can still cover an event etc with the M10D + EVF as a second body as the EVF allows more precise focusing and allows me to be more assured I nailed the shot in pressure situations.

Wifi is also another bonus in that I can review pictures when travelling/when out and about. The FOTOS app apparently clunky and I wouldn't use the app for shooting. Nevertheless it is great to be able view my pictures on the go.

Another reason why the M10D appeals to me over the M240 is that its sensor performs better in low-light, which would be an upgrade over the M240. Additionally, its shutter is quieter and the camera is slimmer.

However if one did not own an M240 variant, the choice may be less clear since we aren't talking about upgrades over aspects of the M240 I feel could've been better (iso, shutter, size). Both cameras embody the idea of shooting without distractions. I like the idea of choice as to whether to use the EVF and Wifi, and both add to the flexibility of the camera. This said, some people perform better when the element of choice is removed.

Edited January 15, 2019 by chasdfg

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[littlelio]

Thanks for the input. I agree that for paid work, some assistance would be great/even essential. For me I would pick DSLR just to make sure... I don't think I would use live view on FOTOS app either, maybe do some settings, and view the image for quick sending on social network.

M10D surely is better, maybe for me it is just the price issue.

It is said the M-D would be difficult to sell since it has no screen. Do you agree? I have to consider this if I upgrade it in the future - or is it a stupid idea anyway... I don't know.

[chasdfg]

I should add that my full time job isn't as a photographer, so the M10D would work fine as a spare body (or second, with a longer lens) for most of the paid shooting I do. An M-D wouldn't be considered at all due to the lack of EVF capability. 

I find the M-D used prices so hover higher than the M262, M240 and MP240. I don't see them for sale very often though. An M10D might appeal to more people than the M-D does because of the added features, if you are concerned about resale. Some people like myself might be apprehensive about forgoing the LV/EVF/picture display features entirely. 

As for M-D + used 35 summicron vs M10D, I think it really depends how far you would like to stretch your budget. You could get a used 35mm from zeiss or voigtlander and used 50mm summicron for the price of a 35mm summicron used + maybe couple extra hundred, which is where I would start off. Personally i feel there are plenty of lens options to work around with for your budget, so the bottom line is which camera do you prefer

Edited January 15, 2019 by chasdfg

[plaidshirts]

Here’s a post that may interest you: 

As an M-D owner myself I think the resale value will hold up since not too many of us seem too eager to upgrade to the M10-D. I consider my M-D as an extension of my film cameras as I use them in a very similar manner.

I’d recommend you try these before deciding. 

[DickieT]

I recently traded my 240MP for a 10M-D as I caught myself shooting mostly film with the 240 collecting dust. I just feel much more in touch with the entire process of photography without many of the digital gimmicks. I have to admit, I like some of them but they were lacking on the original MD - the Visoflex capability being on of the most important. I don's care about seeing my photo's in the FOTOS app, but some of the settings capabilities are useful to customise the body to my specific needs.

As mentioned above by plaidshirts, the 10M-D also feels like an extension of my film Leica's and I very much like my purchase. I did not have a pre-defined view regarding the advance lever after reading all the negative opinions, but I have to say that I LOVE it. I have long(er) fingers and needed a grip on my 240 and also my film bodies. Using the lever on the M10-D, I can hold the body much more securely with smaller lenses. I still have to test with the 28 Summi and Nocti, but so far so good...

The higher ISO image quality with the M10-D is much better than the 240 (model range), especially at 1600-6400. For my purpose, good enough. In my view, the true character of your photos is determined by the person pushing the shutter button and the glass you are using. The body is just a tool, even if it is very pleasant to use )

[littlelio]

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Thanks Guys for the kind advice. And yes I did read the Long live the M-D thread! very helpful.

Due to the budet, I picked M-D in the end, with a used 35 Summicron. Yes I will miss the possible Visoflex on M10D, but for now I have other cameras for the paid work, so I will put M-D for personal use. If client is willing to pay for manual Leica work, then I guess in the future it can fund me to buy another one (take forever to gather the money?! lol)

I am excited with my first Leica, and I believe I will breath new air with all the photos. Passion is essential, but with paid work and my own photos, it feels different. I have had enough pressure so finally, there is silence and nothing between me and the camera, finally.

[Cami]

3 hours ago, littlelio said:

Due to the budet, I picked M-D in the end, with a used 35 Summicron.

Think that was a wise choice!  For the last two years every single day I've been carrying  an M-D with Summicron 35mm and I love it!  

Recently I've was considering the M10-D because of the 0.72 vs 0.68 rangefinder (since I wear glasses) but turns out it was better to get a diopter and shoot without the glasses. Also the M-D battery last forever (1800mAh vs 1200mAh) and even though the M-D has an older sensor it still captures amazing images. Think both the M-D and M10-D would provide a "film-like" experience when taking pictures but I couldn't justify the extremely steep price of an upgrade  (my wife would have dump me too) when the M-D is still amazing!

[littlelio]

2 hours ago, Cami said:

Think that was a wise choice!  For the last two years every single day I've been carrying  an M-D with Summicron 35mm and I love it!  

Recently I've was considering the M10-D because of the 0.72 vs 0.68 rangefinder (since I wear glasses) but turns out it was better to get a diopter and shoot without the glasses. Also the M-D battery last forever (1800mAh vs 1200mAh) and even though the M-D has an older sensor it still captures amazing images. Think both the M-D and M10-D would provide a "film-like" experience when taking pictures but I couldn't justify the extremely steep price of an upgrade  (my wife would have dump me too) when the M-D is still amazing!

Thanks! The M10D is good, but after checked around, the sensor in M10 is better than typ 262, but not much - the high ISO is promising, but not world-changing. Others improvements are trivial, and no deal breaker - at least not worth paying for if I can use that much money to get better lenses.

However by the way, how to get a diopter for M-D? Is it replacable?

[Cami]

22 minutes ago, littlelio said:

However by the way, how to get a diopter for M-D? Is it replacable?

Leica M diopters screw right on the back of the viewfinder. So instead of removing anything you add the diopter to the camera.

Seems that Leica with the M10 changed the viewfinder screw-in so M10s cameras need their own new diopters meant for M10 cameras (not backward compatible). Analog and all digital M cameras before the M10 use the same kind of diopters. If you shoot wearing glasses you may want to consider adding a diopter to shoot without glasses!

[littlelio]

2 minutes ago, Cami said:

Leica M diopters screw right on the back of the viewfinder. So instead of removing anything you add the diopter to the camera.

Seems that Leica with the M10 changed the viewfinder screw-in so M10s cameras need their own new diopters meant for M10 cameras (not backward compatible). Analog and all digital M cameras before the M10 use the same kind of diopters. If you shoot wearing glasses you may want to consider adding a diopter to shoot without glasses!

Ok I saw screw mark on the inner ring of the view finder. But without my glasses I may not be able to walk around  I am using 35mm so I think I should be all right. But yes, I will take a look. Thanks!

[bocaburger]

I just keep the M240 and ignore the LCD, EVF, Video and whatever else I don't want to use at the moment, but they're there if I should ever have the need, as are the thousands of dollars I would've spent to buy a stripped-down body. 

[poli]

On 1/15/2019 at 5:34 AM, littlelio said:

 

It is said the M-D would be difficult to sell since it has no screen. Do you agree? I have to consider this if I upgrade it in the future - or is it a stupid idea anyway... I don't know.

I have sold one without a problem for a decent price. I am glad i have another m-d thouh. 😉

Edited January 17, 2019 by poli

[littlelio]

11 hours ago, bocaburger said:

I just keep the M240 and ignore the LCD, EVF, Video and whatever else I don't want to use at the moment, but they're there if I should ever have the need, as are the thousands of dollars I would've spent to buy a stripped-down body. 

Totally understand. People would say "why not tape the LCD with black so you can never see it"... and when you want to use it, you still have an option. The same with red dot on the front actually.  For me it is simple, the Leica must be special, given the fact that I have too cameras... It is more emotion related I guess.

When I take pictures, I hate to look at the LCD, but somehow I have to... and that's why people say 'feeling free' with such body without screen. I have a Leaf digital back, only one, and the LCD quality is aweful, then I get used to ignore it. Then I realize I can live without it - of course, not for critital work.

I used to see a lady using the Leica (Q I guess), lifted it up and with live view to take photos - I was shocked: in the same way using a phone camera or compact camera... and nowadays, people use DSLR live view as well, and, mirrorless. Yes it is convenient, especially from difficult angle, maybe it is the new era of camera. It is good news.

But it just is not for Leica. 

Just a thought!

[poli]

In general i think we are addicted to screens in our society. For me it’s refreshing and especially relaxing to take pics without relying on another digital screen. 

I am also in favour of the m-d above the m10-d since it does not have wifi, less options and choices in general and batterylife is longer. 😎

Edited January 18, 2019 by poli
Mistake

[plaidshirts]

On 1/14/2019 at 8:34 PM, littlelio said:

It is said the M-D would be difficult to sell since it has no screen. Do you agree?

 

People who have an M-D or want one like this feature (or lack of) so I don't think it'll affect its salability. It's just one less thing to fail on you.

Edited January 18, 2019 by plaidshirts

[plaidshirts]

19 hours ago, bocaburger said:

I just keep the M240 and ignore the LCD, EVF, Video and whatever else I don't want to use at the moment, but they're there if I should ever have the need, as are the thousands of dollars I would've spent to buy a stripped-down body. 

That's what I thought too until I held an M-D in my hands. The aesthetic and tactile differences were enough for me to sell my M240 and buy it.

[littlelio]

9 hours ago, poli said:

In general i think we are addicted to screens in our society. For me it’s refreshing and especially relaxing to take pics without relying on another digital screen. 

I am also in favour of the m-d above the m10-d since it does not have wifi, less options and choices in general and batterylife is longer. 😎

And we can use Wifi SD Card any time if we really need some instant transfer!

although DNG makes it not that straightforward...

[epand56]

I will never buy an M10-D, but I must say that I love the fake advance lever. I've always wondered why Leica didn't put it on all the digital Ms.
I like it for two reasons: 1) because the lever would take the place of the ThumbUp that most users find useful; 2) the lever would give the camera a retro-look that would make anybody think it's an old low value camera. I would like to have a fake advance lever on my M 240.

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[Luke_Miller]

One of the reasons I stayed with my M-240 rather than getting an M-D was that the M-D was not set up the way I shoot (and could not be re-configured).  I love the M-D concept, but was not willing to adjust my shooting style to accommodate the camera.  Now with the M10-D that restriction is lifted since I can set it up with my smartphone. I am close to upgrading to an M10, and am torn between the M10-P and M10-D.  Nice to have choices.