On the great, super, very excellent M10-D thumb grip

[IkarusJohn]

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4 minutes ago, pgh said:

... Not a sound business decision for a professional but a great luxury buy/necklace. 

And we should care why?

Your dismissive reference to non-professionals as “luxury buyers” and our cameras as “necklaces” rather diminishes the rest of your posts.  If you think so little of the rest of us, why post here?  I’m a rational person who realised early in life that I am good at my chosen profession, and I make enough money to be able to afford the equipment I like for the hobbies I enjoy.

Most of us are just photographers who enjoy what Leica has to offer.  They’re cameras. For myself, I don’t need your approval or your scorn. 

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[Tragg]

15 hours ago, indergaard said:

I guess that's why most of the award winning photographs in the last decade has been made with Leica cameras. Oh wait... I guess most of the creators used equipment that hindered them, and that the results would have been much better even still, if they just used a Leica.

Right?

I love my M10 and MP,  but come on. I'm so tired of hearing the same old BS from some Leica users over and over and over again.
The fact of the matter is most rewarded and awarded photography in the last decade or two (or even 5) has not been made with a Leica. It has been made with one of those awfully big, heavy and complicated SLR's/DSLR's, with all these features and buttons that nobody needs or wants. Ah, these complicated tools that creators can't use! ...

Yet, some how... They made it work.

 A good photographer can make a great photograph using any decent camera and today even modestly priced camera offer an impressive result. I own a number of different cameras (including SLRs) and use a Fuji as often as a Leica. Sony, Nikon, Canon etc. all make great cameras. It's a matter of finding what suits your needs. 

[scott kirkpatrick]

On 11/18/2018 at 11:10 PM, earleygallery said:

On my Leica M2 I can use the film wind lever as a kind of grip once I’ve wound on and cocked the shutter (winding film and cocking the shutter being its primary purpose of course). 

As soon as I release the shutter the ‘grip’ will move and if I really used it as a grip I could easily end up dropping the camera as a result!

However, using the form factor rather than the function of a film advance lever is novel.

in the Epson camera it was still a functional item to cock the shutter & it would behave in the same was as my M2 in that as soon as you fire the shutter it’s no longer a ‘grip’.

My M2 used this property to remind me to always rewind after taking a shot.  That way I would be ready for the next shot and if the film ended I would know it.  And I always had a grip when holding it. 

[ramarren]

21 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

For me, I would prefer even less (the M Edition 60 was ideal).  The ability to use the Fotos App and EVF when you need it is a huge plus for me.  I envisage using it for initial set up, then not at all. The EVF, rarely.

My preference would have been to lose the front button, the function button on the top deck and the rear wheel, leaving only the bare minimum of physical contrls.  Sadly, that would have driven the cost through the roof. The reason I never went for the M-D is because it was effectively an M(240) - a camera I never liked much. 

Life is about compromise, I guess.  While the residual wheels and buttons would be better removed, I can understand why Leica stuck with the base body.

Just a minor correction: The M-D is a typ 262 body, not a typ 240. The ME60 was based on the typ 240. Both were simplified from the parent base model.

Having had both 240 and 262 bodies, the 262 produces slightly better results at the level of nuance, image wise, and the M-D 262 has a subtly nicer feel in the hand compared to the M-P 240 due in great measure to the lack of buttons and LCD on the back. It feels very much like the ME60 but a bit lighter. The 262 viewfinder is again subtly clearer and easier to use. 

When I tested an M10, it and the M-D felt very very similar but for the LCD and control buttons. The M10-D should feel very nice, can't wait to visit the Leica Store in SF and handle one.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 11/14/2018 at 1:46 PM, pgh said:

Regarding the Sony, I'm amazed at the lack of effort/time/patience people seem willing to put into learning the tools. 

Read the manual for a few minutes, configure items as you like, and don't worry about it again. I find the Sony cameras very responsive and user friendly once you learn them, and learning a new tool isn't a bad thing - there are more buttons because there is so much more that they can do that is actually, very potentially, of practical value to the average photographer. They are no more shooting with a computer than an iphone or a digital Leica. The design is different, but it expands the scenarios you can use the tool for in a different way. The Leica is elegant and works very well for what it does, the Sony works in many more situations and has it's own functional, practical, (not to mention image quality) benefits. 

As for the M10-D - the concept strikes me as silly. I like the M's for the rangefinder and the compactness. I can do without the rangefinder if need be. I'm not into faux nostalgia, just the smallest full frame, interchangeable lens solution. It better feel amazing in hand for that price, with that sensor, and that lack of features. 

I find the opposite....

I have owned every Sony mirrorless camera since the SLT bodies and every a7 body. I still have an A7R3, A9, A7R2 and a damaged but functional A7 I can't sell. I shot them professionally and for fun, extensively. I've travelled with them. I've got the big lenses and some small ones. With grips and without. Native and adapted lenses. I've tweaked and configured. The image quality is fabulous. Eye AF is amazing. IBIS for my caffeine riddled body and AF that smokes anything Leica makes. They are technically amazing and do everything I could ask for.

Can't stand them.......

As a professional and an amateur, what I don't want is a camera that gets in the way. And the Sony's get in the way. None of the buttons fall naturally under my fingers and they're too close together. That's for my hands. Others may vary. Even after a month of exclusive use I have to think about changing functions. That gets in the way of actually what I need to be concentrating on. And they're terribly unbalanced with most of the better lenses.

I keep them because I have a commercial need for the resolution combined with my tilt shift lenses. The SL may be huge, ugly and 3 years old but I'd rather that any time as a photographic tool and when the SL2 comes out (maybe even the Panasonic) I'll drop the Sony stuff like a rock.

I would have preferred the M10 had the 4 button layout of the S/SL. It's just so usable, rather than one straight line on the left where you can't reach them. But having used the thumb rest,on the D, I really hope they put it on the M11. It sounds like a silly idea but it works really well.

Gordon

[Chaemono]

I agree. They should offer the M11 in two versions, one with the “integrated thumb rest” and one without.

[pico]

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On 11/14/2018 at 8:58 PM, pgh said:

Who decides it's more complex than it needs to be? Who decides what complex is?

Just because a camera can do more than one wants it to do doesn't mean it's needlessly complex.

Try convincing a surgeon he would be better off using a Swiss Army knife.

[papimuzo]

23 hours ago, ramarren said:

 [......................]   The M10-D should feel very nice, can't wait to visit the Leica Store in SF and handle one.

Take care! You could very well succumb...☺️

[ramarren]

9 hours ago, papimuzo said:

Take care! You could very well succumb...☺️

I presume you mean I might want to buy one. I don't usually think of that as succumbing, I think of it as a positive.  

I might want to buy one, but then I have to see whether I have the money... and/or whether I want to sell something else to obtain it. I'm pretty happy with the gear I have now, and have way more than I have time to use however, so spending another $8-Large for another camera seems a bit unlikely for the near future. But ya never know. 

[Photon42]

15 hours ago, pico said:

Try convincing a surgeon he would be better off using a Swiss Army knife.

While I enjoyed your comment, in fairness the surgeon operates (no pun intended) in a very controlled environment with work (hopefully) planned out in extreme detail. Not to mention the crew. We are talking more operations on the go here (gulp), barley lit side roads, subway stations, concerts, ... where your minimalst surgeon's to-go tool may be close indeed to what you did picture 😂

[Photon42]

13 hours ago, papimuzo said:

Take care! You could very well succumb...☺️

That is why I did not touch it

 

[gotium]

On 11/18/2018 at 12:58 PM, jonoslack said:

 

On 11/13/2018 at 6:46 PM, pgh said:

Regarding the Sony, I'm amazed at the lack of effort/time/patience people seem willing to put into learning the tools. 

---------------------

Quite agree. There's no excuse for not getting to grips with the technology, and I certainly did when I was using the Sony

But, But, the problem I did have is that, having set my A7ii up the way I liked I would be shooting, and then I'd accidentally press a button and I was in an unfamiliar world! I'm probably old and stupid, but I relish the fact that when I pick up my SL/CL/M10 I know EXACTLY what all of the rather small number of buttons is going to do, and if I press one in a moment of excitement or passion I do actually know what's going on (which is not the case with most of the cameras I've owned). 

 

 

I should clarify. I agree that 45 minutes with an a7iii is not enough to judge. I neglected to mention (apologies) that I have plenty of experience with the sony interface, having used an Rx1 since it was first introduced, followed by an Rx1rii, for a total of several years. 

Great cameras! But the interface is fiddly. Being both a bear of very little brain and also one who does not use a camera on a daily basis, I would usually have some sort of struggle when it came time to take a picture. To focus the way I like to requires using two modes, and switching between them involves a dial turn followed by a couple of button pushes, customized but not intuitive, and I would have to spend a second or two of mental energy thinking about how to do it. Or I'd find that some setting had been changed accidentally and I wouldn't be able to figure out how to unchange it. In the best of cases I'd need to spend a little time thinking about how to get the camera to work instead of concentrating on the subject I wanted to photograph, which is tiresome. 

So just what Jono says, more succinctly than I can.

45 minutes with an a7iii was enough for me to realize that the interface has not evolved appreciably, and to remind me of my frustrations with using it. No more. 

Someone who needs to do other things with the camera, who uses it daily, or who has a more nimble brain than mine may feel differently. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by gotium

[gotium]

On 11/20/2018 at 10:52 AM, ramarren said:

The M10-D should feel very nice, can't wait to visit the Leica Store in SF and handle one.

Be careful! I really didn't like the way it looked in photos, but find it much, much nicer in hand. 

[ramarren]

We'll see. The M-D is so perfect in my hands it's hard to imagine anything being much better. 

[Photon42]

I will try to get my hands on one, I think.

[jaapv]

On 11/19/2018 at 6:54 PM, indergaard said:

I guess that's why most of the award winning photographs in the last decade has been made with Leica cameras. Oh wait... I guess most of the creators used equipment that hindered them, and that the results would have been much better even still, if they just used a Leica.

Right?

I love my M10 and MP,  but come on. I'm so tired of hearing the same old BS from some Leica users over and over and over again.
The fact of the matter is most rewarded and awarded photography in the last decade or two (or even 5) has not been made with a Leica. It has been made with one of those awfully big, heavy and complicated SLR's/DSLR's, with all these features and buttons that nobody needs or wants. Ah, these complicated tools that creators can't use! ...

Yet, some how... They made it work.

I would suggest that this is basically a matter of statistics. The relevant datum would be the number of award-winning photographs per camera sold.

[IkarusJohn]

To what end?

We establish that award winning photographers prefer X brand or that Y brand users are proportionally more successful in competitions than others?   Right, and that is supposed to make me decide that I neeed to trade my Leica gear for the latest X brand because such-and-such photographer uses one?

I don’t for a second believe that good photos are taken by the camera, or that my pleasure in my photography or my equipment should be dictated by others as a result of their success in photographic competitions (which are of zero relevance or interest to me).