On the great, super, very excellent M10-D thumb grip

[gotium]

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I decided to stop trying to hate this camera and just try it. 

Fakeness abounds. But unlike the fake bottom plate and fake body shape, the fake wind lever actually serves a function, and very well. For the first time we can grip a digital camera as well as we would a film camera! Revelation! And it's so well made that the fakeness is really not bothersome.

I recently rented an a7iii in the hopes of finding a real (non-fake) camera that I could enjoy at far less expense. After 45 minutes of intense irritation with menus, buttons and settings trying to do just the simplest of things (say, like focus a lens?) it went back in the box. For me, a non-professional with a hobby, using a non-fake camera would just mean that I stop taking photos. 

The M10-D is much nicer in hand than it looks online. Really. It doesn’t even look gaudy. I love the screenlessness. And the thumb grip is great.

I don’t like the expense, but I’m glad that someone is willing to make cameras like this. 

[charleswang]

The Epson R-D1 is actually the first digital camera that gives you a film-like grip/handling for the first time ... and that was 14 years ago.

I think all your other points are fair and I am glad you are enjoying the M10-D.

 

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[pico]

Just my two-bits: I have RRS grips on all of my Leicas, and found the thumbie-likes inferior, but I must add that I have long fingers.

 

[gotium]

8 hours ago, charleswang said:

The Epson R-D1 is actually the first digital camera that gives you a film-like grip/handling for the first time ... and that was 14 years ago.

 

Good point. Why’d it take 14 years for version II?!?

[charleswang]

12 hours ago, gotium said:

Good point. Why’d it take 14 years for version II?!?

No market and low demand I guess. In the early 2000s people are still crossing over from film and there was not a strong 'nostalgia' factor for gimmicks like the shutter crank on digital, even if it is fully functional. In 2018 the M10-D target market is still extremely niche but enough for Leica to justify producing the model. I was initially very disappointed by the nonfunctional crank but have made my peace with it. I will never buy one as long as I have my m10 but I do however will jump at the opportunity for an reincarnation of the R-D1.

[ramarren]

The  Epson R-D1 had a film wind lever because it was basically a film body outfitted with a digital sensor and you needed a lever to tension the shutter springs. 

In all my forty years of using 35mm film cameras prior to the digital era, I never once used a film wind lever as a thumb rest. They always got in the way of my fingers, and I left them retracted as much of the time as was possible. Kowtowing to the pile of people who did use them as thumb rests instead of creating a proper thumb rest shows a lack of imagination on the part of Leica engineering. 

 

[pico]

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3 hours ago, ramarren said:

In all my forty years of using 35mm film cameras prior to the digital era, I never once used a film wind lever as a thumb rest.

We are all built differently. For my early work in 35mm the advance lever was all I had to stabilize. The accessories we speak of now are largely for digital cameras. I tried the thumbie-like stuff for M7 but a hand grip worked better. Options point to our individual differences. Options are good.

[pgh]

On 11/11/2018 at 11:03 PM, gotium said:

I decided to stop trying to hate this camera and just try it. 

Fakeness abounds. But unlike the fake bottom plate and fake body shape, the fake wind lever actually serves a function, and very well. For the first time we can grip a digital camera as well as we would a film camera! Revelation! And it's so well made that the fakeness is really not bothersome.

I recently rented an a7iii in the hopes of finding a real (non-fake) camera that I could enjoy at far less expense. After 45 minutes of intense irritation with menus, buttons and settings trying to do just the simplest of things (say, like focus a lens?) it went back in the box. For me, a non-professional with a hobby, using a non-fake camera would just mean that I stop taking photos. 

The M10-D is much nicer in hand than it looks online. Really. It doesn’t even look gaudy. I love the screenlessness. And the thumb grip is great.

I don’t like the expense, but I’m glad that someone is willing to make cameras like this. 

Regarding the Sony, I'm amazed at the lack of effort/time/patience people seem willing to put into learning the tools. 

Read the manual for a few minutes, configure items as you like, and don't worry about it again. I find the Sony cameras very responsive and user friendly once you learn them, and learning a new tool isn't a bad thing - there are more buttons because there is so much more that they can do that is actually, very potentially, of practical value to the average photographer. They are no more shooting with a computer than an iphone or a digital Leica. The design is different, but it expands the scenarios you can use the tool for in a different way. The Leica is elegant and works very well for what it does, the Sony works in many more situations and has it's own functional, practical, (not to mention image quality) benefits. 

As for the M10-D - the concept strikes me as silly. I like the M's for the rangefinder and the compactness. I can do without the rangefinder if need be. I'm not into faux nostalgia, just the smallest full frame, interchangeable lens solution. It better feel amazing in hand for that price, with that sensor, and that lack of features. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by pgh

[pico]

I loaned a Lumix G1 digital camera to a friend who has been using film M-Leicas for over forty years. He returned it saying, "I never thought photography could be made so difficult."

 

[pgh]

3 minutes ago, pico said:

I loaned a Lumix G1 digital camera to a friend who has been using film M-Leicas for over forty years. He returned it saying, "I never thought photography could be made so difficult."

 

Yea my guess is that it has much more to do with the "Can't teach an old dog new tricks" cliche (some defy this notion somehow!) than anything about the Panasonic itself. I mean, yea, with a new tool at some level you're gonna have to put forth a little bit of cognitive investment at the outset but the payoff is there. If people don't wanna do that fine, but that ain't the fault of the technology. 

[IkarusJohn]

Why not?  If a tool is more complex than it needs to be, it’s certainly the fault of the technology; or rather the way it’s implemented.

[gotium]

2 hours ago, pgh said:

Regarding the Sony, I'm amazed at the lack of effort/time/patience people seem willing to put into learning the tools. 

Read the manual for a few minutes, configure items as you like, and don't worry about it again. I find the Sony cameras very responsive and user friendly once you learn them, and learning a new tool isn't a bad thing - there are more buttons because there is so much more that they can do that is actually, very potentially, of practical value to the average photographer. They are no more shooting with a computer than an iphone or a digital Leica. The design is different, but it expands the scenarios you can use the tool for in a different way. The Leica is elegant and works very well for what it does, the Sony works in many more situations and has it's own functional, practical, (not to mention image quality) benefits. 

As for the M10-D - the concept strikes me as silly. I like the M's for the rangefinder and the compactness. I can do without the rangefinder if need be. I'm not into faux nostalgia, just the smallest full frame, interchangeable lens solution. It better feel amazing in hand for that price, with that sensor, and that lack of features. 

For a professional, a Sony would be much more useful, certainly. Ditto for someone with need for video, sport, macro, maybe even most applications. 

But for my niche use (carrying it around all day, happy with manual focus) the Sony is not only fiddly; it also doesn't work as well. Focus magnification won't turn on when you move the lens - you actually have to click a button, and then you either have a pre-determined arbitrary time to focus, or you set it to turn off when you fire the shutter - which means that you can't focus and then compose, without wasting a frame to get out of focus magnification. At least that's as far as I got with it. It would be fine for landscapes or stills (choosing a focus spot instead of recomposing), but for my use, grabbing the lens and turning the focus ring is a much more elegant solution. And the number of menus is just nuts. I spend most of my waking hours fighting badly written software, and I want to get as far away from that as I can with my free time. 

It's not the nostalgia binge per se that I like with this camera - it's the simplicity and ease of use, accepting the limitations that come with that. 

[gotium]

2 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Why not?  If a tool is more complex than it needs to be, it’s certainly the fault of the technology; or rather the way it’s implemented.

Indeed. This is Leica's niche. 

Edited November 14, 2018 by gotium

[robert blu]

6 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Why not?  If a tool is more complex than it needs to be, it’s certainly the fault of the technology; or rather the way it’s implemented.

+1 ! Probably it is a marketing strategy, we have more in our camera than in yours! Buy ours. But I'm in the less is more camp ! I know, I'm old...

robert

[patrickcolpron]

16 hours ago, gotium said:

For a professional, a Sony would be much more useful, certainly. Ditto for someone with need for video, sport, macro, maybe even most applications. 

I am a professional and I need video, and close up photography - I looked at Sony and just couldn't get passed the size of the fast lenses for the A9 and A7 series, purchased two M10s for photos and a Nikon D850 for video.

This said, when anyone asks me what camera they should buy, "Sony A7 series" but personably the size of the lenses on mirrorless cameras kills it for me, why have a smaller camera and ... bigger lenses, defeats the purpose of a mirrorless camera IMHO. 

[pgh]

23 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Why not?  If a tool is more complex than it needs to be, it’s certainly the fault of the technology; or rather the way it’s implemented.

Who decides it's more complex than it needs to be? Who decides what complex is?

Just because a camera can do more than one wants it to do doesn't mean it's needlessly complex. If one can't figure out how to use a Sony in a manual way then that strikes me as curious, because it is not hard to do.

Surely manual film development was a cumbersome process that many people here learned.

I understand the appeal of the stripped down Leica, I mean, I own an M10 myself - but it's not an either or. Other tools do much more things better, and on balance you get much more for your money with the other tools. If people are really that turned off simply by the availability of other ways to use the tools (an availability that is optional and easy to ignore) that's not the fault of the technology. 

[pgh]

4 hours ago, patrickcolpron said:

I am a professional and I need video, and close up photography - I looked at Sony and just couldn't get passed the size of the fast lenses for the A9 and A7 series, purchased two M10s for photos and a Nikon D850 for video.

This said, when anyone asks me what camera they should buy, "Sony A7 series" but personably the size of the lenses on mirrorless cameras kills it for me, why have a smaller camera and ... bigger lenses, defeats the purpose of a mirrorless camera IMHO. 

Not all of the lenses are that large, and there are other benefits to mirrorless besides the smaller form factor - but with regards to this conversation I think you could swap out Nikon or Sony, as both are full buttons and functions beyond the Leica. 

[pgh]

21 hours ago, gotium said:

Focus magnification won't turn on when you move the lens - you actually have to click a button, and then you either have a pre-determined arbitrary time to focus, or you set it to turn off when you fire the shutter - which means that you can't focus and then compose, without wasting a frame to get out of focus magnification. At least that's as far as I got with it.

Yes it will, in manual focus mode - it is called manual focus assist. I share your aversion for poorly written software but I really think that the Sony cameras do a good job of being intuitive tools once you put in a bit of time to set them up and in a way that suits best how you like to work. They're not Leicas, but they can't be because they do much more than a Leica could. And they do pretty everything a Leica can do (except be as small). Not saying Leica's don't have their place because sometimes the compactness is paramount. 

[IkarusJohn]

11 minutes ago, pgh said:

Who decides it's more complex than it needs to be? Who decides what complex is?

...

The user, obviously.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[gotium]

33 minutes ago, pgh said:

Yes it will, in manual focus mode - it is called manual focus assist. I share your aversion for poorly written software but I really think that the Sony cameras do a good job of being intuitive tools once you put in a bit of time to set them up and in a way that suits best how you like to work. They're not Leicas, but they can't be because they do much more than a Leica could. And they do pretty everything a Leica can do (except be as small). Not saying Leica's don't have their place because sometimes the compactness is paramount. 

I think I might be an old dog (gulp)