Does SL need more megapixels?

[Brian C in Az]

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8 minutes ago, antigallican said:

This is very interesting. I've always felt the Leica SL file has a quality (apart from the lens performance) which is separate from just the file size. Could you point to  a source for the information?

http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html

 

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[mmradman]

3 hours ago, Brian C in Az said:

http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html

 

Article is almost two years old, January 2016, and it describes Leica sensors at time of waiting.  If Leica approach as suggested in the article than S3 would still be 37mp instead of recently announced >60mp. 

It is not question of if but when, as soon as flagship S3 is in the shops it opens door for full frame cameras to go above 24Mp.  Leica may even follow other vendors and maintain 24 plus 40+ models side by side.

[IkarusJohn]

1 minute ago, mmradman said:

Article is almost two years old, January 2016, and it describes Leica sensors at time of waiting.  If Leica approach as suggested in the article than S3 would still be 37mp instead of recently announced >60mp. 

It is not question of if but when, as soon as flagship S3 is in the shops it opens door for full frame cameras to go above 24Mp.  Leica may even follow other vendors and maintain 24 plus 40+ models side by side.

I noted that too, but I’m not sure that its age means it’s no longer relevant. The same philosophy could surely apply to higher MP sensors.  The article is the most informative thing I've read in a while (though I think I have read it before).

It also explains why it was so hard to get a sharp image with the early 37.5MP Sony sensors on the A7r and D800e.

What is not surprising is the entire package offered by Leica, rather than just simplistic MP bragging rights.  Heat management in the M body must also be a factor.  Presumably, this is less of an issue with the SL body.

[Chaemono]

Two L-Mount models, one with 24 MPx and one with 47 MPx, both with no OLPF either by Panasonic and perhaps by Leica to compare larger vs. smaller pixels would be interesting. Depending on what one is shooting, larger pixels are better. I suspect the 24 MPx models will have an OLPF, though. 

[IkarusJohn]

OLPF?

[Chaemono]

https://www.nikonimgsupport.com/eu/BV_article?articleNo=000006377&configured=1&lang=en_GB&sfdcIFrameOrigin=null

http://resourcemagonline.com/2016/05/your-cameras-low-pass-filter-may-be-ruining-your-photos/66301/

http://www.photocritic.org/articles/what-was-an-optical-low-pass-filter-and-why-did-we-need-one

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-aliasing_filter

Edited November 28, 2018 by Chaemono

[IkarusJohn]

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OIS, TMISMC!

[Chaemono]

Optical Image Stabilization, To Me Is More Certain!

[IkarusJohn]

20 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Optical Image Stabilization, To Me Is More Certain!

Optical Image Stabilisation?

No, that was "oh, I see, that makes it so much clearer" ... 😉

[Brian C in Az]

5 hours ago, mmradman said:

Article is almost two years old, January 2016, and it describes Leica sensors at time of waiting.  

The article is still factually accurate. The date of the article doesn't change the fact that the article describes the difference in design between what Leica is using in the M and SL and Q as opposed to what other manufacturers are currently using.

I think that since Leica has had good success with the APS-c sensor, they may just scale it up to a larger sensor with the corresponding increase in pixels. Then offer the SL with 24MP and an SL2 (or other name) with 40-50MP.

Another option is a completely different design using layer of pixels. The second and third row can be used to increase dynamic range and decrease noise. Lots of possibilities and even more speculation. 

[helged]

13 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

I noted that too, but I’m not sure that its age means it’s no longer relevant. The same philosophy could surely apply to higher MP sensors.  The article is the most informative thing I've read in a while (though I think I have read it before).

It also explains why it was so hard to get a sharp image with the early 37.5MP Sony sensors on the A7r and D800e.

What is not surprising is the entire package offered by Leica, rather than just simplistic MP bragging rights.  Heat management in the M body must also be a factor.  Presumably, this is less of an issue with the SL body.

Heat was explicitly mentioned as one of the considerations for the new S3, see https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2018/09/photokina-2018-the-leica-s3/:

"Clearly, you were focused on image quality. Did you think about any other criteria when you were developing the camera?

We really worked on making the sensor very power efficient with extremely low heat output. By running the sensor cooler, this gives the user better battery life, but also delivers the best image quality. You don’t want a hot sensor. Not for video, and not for absolute best image quality."

[mmradman]

9 hours ago, Brian C in Az said:

The article is still factually accurate. The date of the article doesn't change the fact that the article describes the difference in design between what Leica is using in the M and SL and Q as opposed to what other manufacturers are currently using.

I think that since Leica has had good success with the APS-c sensor, they may just scale it up to a larger sensor with the corresponding increase in pixels. Then offer the SL with 24MP and an SL2 (or other name) with 40-50MP.

Another option is a completely different design using layer of pixels. The second and third row can be used to increase dynamic range and decrease noise. Lots of possibilities and even more speculation. 

I am no sensor specialist but what i know is that market lead sensor manufacturer(s) always utilise latest development in the technologies available, something to do with Moor's Law and market demand.  Latest >40Mp full frame sensors are plenty ISO sensitive/low noise so they must be producing efficient sensors - do you disagree?

Leica unique design feature required for Leica digital cameras is layer of micro-lenses to allow legacy lenses, especially M, to work with digital sensor.

BTW, "rolling eyes" are speciality of one of the Moderators, so let me do web ROTFL.

Edited November 29, 2018 by mmradman
Multitasking error requiring correction ;-)

[Bob Andersson]

I suspect that with back illumination we have seen the last major advance in sensor development in terms of sensitivity although there will no doubt be small improvements as quantum efficiency goes up a little and read noise comes down. Post-processing noise reduction is getting pretty good these days so maybe there's still scope for more of that to be done in camera on RAW data. Done cleverly you might never know! 😉

I suppose widespread adoption of global shutter is the next "big thing" although, not being into video, I can't think of a situation where I've lost a photo because I lack it. Maybe my imagination isn't good enough?

Moore's Law is effectively dead as witnessed by Intel's woes in moving over to 7nm fabrication. Maybe that plateauing of technology is no bad thing for cameras as well. Wouldn't it be nice to stop worrying how long it will be before your latest camera body purchase is obsolescent, not because it has stopped taking great photographs but because it lack some whizzy new feature you will rarely use?

Back to the topic in hand, the 24MP of the current SL is enough for me although I wouldn't sneeze at 36MP. 47MP might be a step too far, personally, although I understand that for some it would be a good option. The only reason I'm hanging on for the anticipated SL2 announcement is my perception that the demonstrated advances over the last three years in sensor tech will allow it to improve somewhat on the already stellar SL and that, with the aforementioned plateauing in technology advancement, the SL2 will allow me to step off the camera body upgrade ladder for a decade or more. Yes, I know - I'm a dreamer. 🤣

[antigallican]

21 hours ago, Brian C in Az said:

http://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2016/01/the-future-of-sensor-technology-at-leica.html

 

Thanks. Very interesting. I used to own a Nikon D 810 and (horrible colour aside) didn't feel it is any any way superior to the SL - quite the opposite.

[laowai_]

18 hours ago, Bob Andersson said:

 

Back to the topic in hand, the 24MP of the current SL is enough for me although I wouldn't sneeze at 36MP. 47MP might be a step too far, personally, although I understand that for some it would be a good option. The only reason I'm hanging on for the anticipated SL2 announcement is my perception that the demonstrated advances over the last three years in sensor tech will allow it to improve somewhat on the already stellar SL and that, with the aforementioned plateauing in technology advancement, the SL2 will allow me to step off the camera body upgrade ladder for a decade or more. Yes, I know - I'm a dreamer. 🤣

It's not only the sensor you need to be concerned about but also the entire signal chain. Stepping form 36 MP to 47 MP you need to read an extra 11 MP. That was state of the art not too long ago. You also want to have higher burst rate, more bursts, which means much larger buffers not to mention the 'plumbing' that transports the data from the sensor through buffers, signal processors, etc. Want wireless connectivity? You'll need a bunch of antennas and got yourself a bunch of RF interference problems, the higher the data rate, the bigger the problems. It's all solvable by throwing enough money at it. In other words it all boils down to market share, growth potential ROI and and competitive pressure. 

[Agent M10]

Interesting site: https://www.digicamdb.com

Didn't know it existed. Shows pixel density, etc. for cameras. 

[Jeff S]

On 11/28/2018 at 1:08 PM, IkarusJohn said:

I noted that too, but I’m not sure that its age means it’s no longer relevant. The same philosophy could surely apply to higher MP sensors.  The article is the most informative thing I've read in a while (though I think I have read it before).

You might have read some of this when David Farkas wrote about the S007 sensor technology in 2014....

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2014/11/why-leica-is-staying-at-37-5mp-for-the-s-typ-007/

When I linked this article way back then, most here countered that it was just a bunch of marketing hooey to rationalize the S system’s lag in the MP race.  Funny that.

Jeff

[wildlightphoto]

After comparing the Leica SL and Sony a7RII when each camera is using the 280/4 APO, I'd say that more MP would be a very big benefit for the SL.  This applies also when using the spectacular 90-280 APO.  I found that the SL's 24MP combined with either of these fine lenses often results in horrific aliasing and color moire when photographing birds at close range where fine feather detail is visible in the photograph.

Edited December 1, 2018 by wildlightphoto

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[jaapv]

I've said it before. This is the most valid argument for increasing the MP count.

I am not sure how many MP one would need to eliminate this problem entirely. Shouldn't the sensor resolution exceed the lens resolution in that case? Or at least the frequency of the detail?

The alternative solution would obviously be to use an AA filter that can be switched off like the Pentax K3. An electronic low-pass filter is quite common in acoustics.

 

[helged]

8 hours ago, wildlightphoto said:

After comparing the Leica SL and Sony a7RII when each camera is using the 280/4 APO, I'd say that more MP would be a very big benefit for the SL.  This applies also when using the spectacular 90-280 APO.  I found that the SL's 24MP combined with either of these fine lenses often results in horrific aliasing and color moire when photographing birds at close range where fine feather detail is visible in the photograph.

Sigma's Foveon FF sensor should provide a good measure of the resolution needed to (close to) eliminate aliasing and colour moire. Whether the Sigma body is the 'optimal' choise for bif photography is something else... 😉