New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Rather more recognise that the SL really is a Leica designed and made camera that happens to use components from other sources - probably including Panasonic! And scratch a Panasonic, and I'm sure you'll find components made by others under the skin, and not just by Leica.

This chestnut keeps coming round - what is it about Leica that makes it difficult to imagine them not having the ability to design and make such a camera?

That said, I am sure Panasonic have incorporated (Leica's) lessons from the SL in this new camera - assuming it exists  .

Well put.

[Jon Warwick]

Somehow I see people canceling their Z and EOS-R orders.

I’ll be one example of that if a high megapixel Panasonic comes out (I’ve been on a waiting list for a Z7). The Leica SL Summicrons are the best full frame lenses I’ve ever used, and in my heart of hearts, I knew I’d miss their rendering if I jumped ship, but the Z7 was — at the time — ticking a lot of boxes (high resolution sensor, lower $, and the 35mm and 50mm Nikkor primes looked pretty decent).

 

A high megapixel Panasonic body could change that — I typically see a digital camera body as having a fairly short shelf life due to sensor advancements (ie, I’m happy for a camera body to be less beautifully engineered than a Leica M or SL, assuming sensor quality is the same).

 

At the same time, a lower cost for a Panasonic body would provide more $ for Leica SL lenses, where I’m quite content to pay $$$ given they’re both market-leading and have a much longer shelf-life.

[bags27]

I'm somewhat in the same position, though I have the Z6 on pre-order. My struggle with the Panasonic is based on their current cameras where I really don't like the form factor and which is likely going to be replicated in their next ones. The Nikons are much better: better to hold, more dials than simple digital settlings, just a simpler interface. Nikon is far from the Leica that way, but way ahead, IMO, of any other digital camera (except the 1/2 sensor Fujis, whose form factor is nice, but not the interface). So, I'm hoping that all this craziness results in Leica producing more quickly a more current SL2.

Edited September 21, 2018 by bags27

[RomeoBravo]

Rather more recognise that the SL really is a Leica designed and made camera that happens to use components from other sources - probably including Panasonic! And scratch a Panasonic, and I'm sure you'll find components made by others under the skin, and not just by Leica.

This chestnut keeps coming round - what is it about Leica that makes it difficult to imagine them not having the ability to design and make such a camera?

That said, I am sure Panasonic have incorporated (Leica's) lessons from the SL in this new camera - assuming it exists  .

As I've said before - the design, body, and menus of the SL are ALL Leica.  I have no doubts believing that the SL was a Leica design.  However, I have doubts believing the video features in the SL have anything to do with Leica.  It's not impossible to think that Leica is responsible for the video features in the SL, but it is HIGHLY unlikely.  Also, with the SL having the first competent AF system in a Leica (and it being CDAF only), I strongly suspect this is Panasonic's doing as well.  I think the SL is an amazing piece of metal.  Along with the SL lenses it produces images with much more detail and micro-contrast than my other cameras (with higher resolution sensors).  However, the features inside scream Panasonic to me.

Edited September 21, 2018 by RomeoBravo

[LocalHero1953]

As I've said before - the design, body, and menus of the SL are ALL Leica.  I have no doubts believing that the SL was a Leica design.  However, I have doubts believing the video features in the SL have anything to do with Leica.  It's not impossible to think that Leica is responsible for the video features in the SL, but it is HIGHLY unlikely.  Also, with the SL having the first competent AF system in a Leica (and it being CDAF only), I strongly suspect this is Panasonic's doing as well.  I think the SL is an amazing piece of metal.  Along with the SL lenses it produces images with much more detail and micro-contrast than my other cameras (with higher resolution sensors).  However, the features inside scream Panasonic to me.

Not to me. Just shows how we respond differently to different cameras. 

 

The SL is defined for me neither by the CDAF nor video. Nor is it just an "amazing piece of metal". I don't use video, and you'll find as many detractors of the SL's AF here as fans (though I like it). The SL is defined by the form factor and balance with the lens, the minimalist UI, the responsiveness, the EVF, the lenses (with OIS), the speed of AFs, the IQ........in fact quite a lot really. What makes this a characteristic Leica is how all the components have been designed to work well together in a package that gets out of the the space between the photographer and the image. This is not a characteristic of most other manufacturers, and it is not defined by individual features.

 

The SL is not a Panasonic in Leica clothing.This new Panasonic might mean the SL2 is, though - we shall see. But the example of Hasselblad and Fuji's co-operation  could mean that the SL2 has as much resemblance to the L-Panasonic as the X1D does to the Fuji GFX. That is what I find interesting to think about!

Edited September 21, 2018 by LocalHero1953

[mmradman]

Having looked at Lrumors website again there may be few disappointments come next Friday, it states Panasonic will announce development of two new full frame mirrorless cameras and three lenses, with launch in 2019, by than SL2 may be on horizon and Nikon and Canon will be already selling own mirrorless for months.

[BernardC]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Back to the adapter question. I happen to have a m43 adapter handy that I used on a previous project (with a BlackMagic video camera). The m43 mount is tiny compared to the L mount, the adapter floats around like a toddler wearing daddy's shoes. You can rotate it 360 degrees without any obstruction.

 

My assessment is that a m43-to-L mount adapter is possible, provided that the electronic interface is handled by the camera. In other words, it would be a "dumb" adapter that passes-through the electronic contacts on m43 lenses to contacts inside the L-mount camera.

As I stated previously, such an adapter would only be useful for video, and it's very unlikely that it would work with the SL. It would be an incentive for some m43 users to choose Panasonic's FF mirrorless system over competing options.

[thighslapper]

Not to me. Just shows how we respond differently to different cameras. 

 

The SL is defined for me neither by the CDAF nor video. Nor is it just an "amazing piece of metal". I don't use video, and you'll find as many detractors of the SL's AF here as fans (though I like it). The SL is defined by the form factor and balance with the lens, the minimalist UI, the responsiveness, the EVF, the lenses (with OIS), the speed of AFs, the IQ........in fact quite a lot really. What makes this a characteristic Leica is how all the components have been designed to work well together in a package that gets out of the the space between the photographer and the image. This is not a characteristic of most other manufacturers, and it is not defined by individual features.

 

The SL is not a Panasonic in Leica clothing.This new Panasonic might mean the SL2 is, though - we shall see. But the example of Hasselblad and Fuji's co-operation  could mean that the SL2 has as much resemblance to the L-Panasonic as the X1D does to the Fuji GFX. That is what I find interesting to think about!

 

I have to agree ...... what sets Leica apart is that the cameras and the overall user experience seems to be designed by people who actually take photographs, rather than dictated by technicians obsessed with features and the companies marketing department. 

 

I'd rather have a camera a generation adrift in performance that I enjoy using, rather than one that is cutting edge and a pain in the a*se. 

[mmradman]

I have to agree ...... what sets Leica apart is that the cameras and the overall user experience seems to be designed by people who actually take photographs, rather than dictated by technicians obsessed with features and the companies marketing department. 

 

I'd rather have a camera a generation adrift in performance that I enjoy using, rather than one that is cutting edge and a pain in the a*se.

 

Fully agree with your sentiment but many cameras users couldn’t care less, we are minority. Sony Alpha are cheaper than Leicas, we knew that, and ability to adopt multiple lens systems gave many access to full frame digital photography and videography with features like high ISO and large resolution, all this despite poor interfaces and mind boggling menus.

[FrozenInTime]

Micro 4/3 lenses on a CL or TL2 might be a interesting consequence if there is an adapter (as would Sigma branded APS-C TL image circle lenses.)

 

AF lenses often have ability to focus beyond infinity to accommodate focus motor overshoot and deceleration.

It’s unlikely but not impossible that some newer m43 lenses would work with a mm or so thicker adapter especially if this move has been in play for several years ; who knows.

[FrozenInTime]

A latest rumor is for a 150 Mpixel sensor shift mode.

https://www.l-rumors.com/l5-the-new-panasonic-ff-high-edn-camera-can-take-150-megapixel-images-in-pixel-shift-modus/

 

Are expectations for an incremental on SL design i.e. SL2 to get to market well before the Panasonics in April ....

[RomeoBravo]

Not to me. Just shows how we respond differently to different cameras. 

 

The SL is defined for me neither by the CDAF nor video. Nor is it just an "amazing piece of metal". I don't use video, and you'll find as many detractors of the SL's AF here as fans (though I like it). The SL is defined by the form factor and balance with the lens, the minimalist UI, the responsiveness, the EVF, the lenses (with OIS), the speed of AFs, the IQ........in fact quite a lot really. What makes this a characteristic Leica is how all the components have been designed to work well together in a package that gets out of the the space between the photographer and the image. This is not a characteristic of most other manufacturers, and it is not defined by individual features.

 

The SL is not a Panasonic in Leica clothing.This new Panasonic might mean the SL2 is, though - we shall see. But the example of Hasselblad and Fuji's co-operation  could mean that the SL2 has as much resemblance to the L-Panasonic as the X1D does to the Fuji GFX. That is what I find interesting to think about!

 

I feel like you are arguing with me, but somehow we aren't even talking about the same thing.  You are talking about intangibles and philosophic qualities like you believe that Leica has a patent on these - so therefore - the SL must have been made by Leica.  In other words - your "arguments" don't contain any proofs or examples.

 

Moreover, I don't understand what "response" to a camera has to do with whether or not Panasonic technology is used in the SL.

 

Finally, I never said the SL was "defined" by CDAF or Video.  I just used those features as examples of why I felt Panasonic had a role in the SL.  If you believe the SL is all Leica - then more power to you.  However, if you believe that, I think you have your head in the sand.  There is a lot of similar tech (similar to Panasonic) in the latest Leica cameras, and everyone knows they have a partnership.  So why is it so hard to believe that they didn't cooperate on the SL?

 

The funny thing is - I actually agree with your philosophical reasons for liking the Leica SL - but none of that proves that Panasonic had nothing to do with making the camera.

 

What is this Hasselblad Fuji thing you are talking about?  You lost me there.  

Edited September 21, 2018 by RomeoBravo

[IkarusJohn]

I think you’re both right, but arguing over differences in expression.

 

It is not incompatible to either position that the SL was designed from top to bottom by Leica. My understanding is that the camera was designed by a different team to the M system team from the ground up. They have used Panasonic and other technical skills, but to Leica’s design, both in what is specified and the user interface. This has meant that, taken as a whole, the camera is Leica through and through - that is not incompatible with using Panasonic or anyone else’s tech; nor does it mean that if you scratch the surface, the SL is a Panasonic.

 

Reading through this thread, I can’t help but feel that this whole discussion is based on little more than a rumour that is analysed, seasoned with huge amounts of wishful thinking and then taken galloping down a fork and over the horizon. Past experience has been that while these good ideas and extrapolations look great, they will result in disapointment when an announcement is finally made. The June release of the M10-P is a case in point - even Leica Rumours, who many attribute more credibility to than is really deserves, was quite wrong on this release and others in the past.

 

I’m breathing through my nose (other than for a new M-D), as I think Leica does have the ability to surprise, but I’d rather wait to be surprised than over speculate and be disappointed. The SL was developed in secret from the time the M(240) was released, and that was a lovely surprise; none of the “improvements” to that camera interest me in the least. I will watch with interest, but will only look at replacing what I have when it dies - I trust Leica to produce a camera with a similar attention to the whole user experience, compatible with my current lenses.

 

Cheers

John

Edited September 22, 2018 by IkarusJohn

[Chaemono]

I feel like you are arguing with me, but somehow we aren't even talking about the same thing. You are talking about intangibles and philosophic qualities like you believe that Leica has a patent on these - so therefore - the SL must have been made by Leica. In other words - your "arguments" don't contain any proofs or examples.

Since you seem to have figured it out, the CL contains a Sony sensor and AF by Panasonic. I’m struggling to decide whether the CL is a Leica, a Panasonic, or a Sony.

[RomeoBravo]

Since you seem to have figured it out, the CL contains a Sony sensor and AF by Panasonic. I’m struggling to decide whether the CL is a Leica, a Panasonic, or a Sony.

Are you asking me a question, or are you mocking me?

I've heard rumors that the CL has a Sony sensor (which makes sense), and I don't doubt that the AF is by Panasonic.  However, as with the SL, the menus are Leica, the Colors (including skin tones) are Leica, and it certainly doesn't look like a Sony or Panasonic. 

But ultimately, it's up to you to decide.

Since you brought up the Sony sensor - do we know for sure that the SL (and Q) don't have a Sony sensor?  I've heard some rumors say it was made by Sony, and some say Towerjazz (owned in part by Panasonic).

[Chaemono]

Umm...Leica's name for one. Also because of the partnership between Leica and Panasonic that already exists. Many people have suspected that the SL is just a Panasonic camera in a Leica body (video features, CDAF that is probably using DFD). So this would technically be Panasonic's 2nd gen of FF cameras.

Here you argued differently so I was just trying to figure out which generation Sony or Panasonic APS-C camera my CL was. BTW, the battery cells in Tesla cars are from Panasonic.

[andrewteee]

Can we please bring this thread back to the topic at hand, which is quite interesting by itself. 

[Chaemono]

Yes, let’s change the subject. Any of you leave the toilette seat up?

[sillbeers15]

Economics of scale is always a good thing for makers of equipment and users.

I really hope the rumor of Panasonic, Leica & Sigma working on a common L mount will come true. I've decided to stick to Leica on camera and lenses (I really enjoyed and had gottrn used to customised back buttons + joystick on the SL as a mirrorless camera and I am trully spoilt by the images I get out of my Leica SL lenses) and do not see Panasonic & Sigma tempting me over anytime soon. However I really hope that 3rd party light solution provider such as Profoto will offer a varient to Leica if the L mount cameras share the same flash protocol.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[RomeoBravo]

Here you argued differently so I was just trying to figure out which generation Sony or Panasonic APS-C camera my CL was. BTW, the battery cells in Tesla cars are from Panasonic.

Not sure what you mean when you say I argued differently?  Someone asked why these manufacturers would want to partner with Leica and use the L-Mount.  So I answered the question the best I could.  I wasn't saying I believed the SL was a Panasonic in a Leica body - only that a lot of people do and their argument is not lost on me. 

For the record - I owned the SL.  It was miles better than my Sony a7R III in construction, out of the box colors, overall-IQ (yes the images had more detail than the 42 MP sensor rated 100 by DXO), and simplified menus.  But the C-AF was not as good, and it was ultimately too big and heavy for my liking.

I currently own the CL, and love it.  Panasonic AF, Sony sensor and all!

 

Edit - for those that asked for return to the original topic, I apologize, I was composing this message as you posted so I didn't see your request before submitting my post

Edited September 22, 2018 by RomeoBravo