New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[antigallican]

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Because a camera is more than the sum of the parts. Much as I dislike car analogies, the Jaguar X-type was based on the Ford Mondeo, yet it was a "real" Jaguar and the best selling one ever too. Additionally, I suspect that Leica's margin on lenses is much higher than on cameras. Who cares if they sell a few bodies less if lens sales increase substantially?

I even doubt whether that will happen, some Panasonic customers will want to move up. And Panaleicas sell well.

 

I did a course at the time the X type was being developed with a Ford research engineer and he told me the teams were kept strictly apart -even the guys developing the car radios weren't allowed to share. I don't think it's an accident it was a real Jaguar.

[DanielJr]

I'm more interested in Sigma full frame camera because it will smash all cameras besides Phaseone in image quality. My Sigma sdqh is already better than any Leica camera ever made image quality wise. Now if I get to put Leica S 100mm f2 or Leica 50mm f2 lens on a Sigma sensor I'll be the happiest man alive. Granted I only use my cameras on base iso, always on tripod, and don't care for video.

Edited October 3, 2018 by DanielJr

[bags27]

A lot of integrity coming from the Panasonic boss

 

[Martin B]

14 hours ago, bags27 said:

A lot of integrity coming from the Panasonic boss

 

Unfortunately nothing was asked or mentioned about the most pressing question - how does this camera perform with M lenses and adapter? This to me is all or nothing....

[deep]

3 hours ago, Martin B said:

Unfortunately nothing was asked or mentioned about the most pressing question - how does this camera perform with M lenses and adapter? This to me is all or nothing....

With all due respect, that is hardly likely to be the most pressing question for most potential buyers!  How it performs with L mount lenses, on the other hand, will be crucial.

[Chaemono]

So, Panasonic succeeds or fails in FF based on how well these bodies work with M lenses?  You don‘t say!

[lct]

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4 hours ago, Martin B said:

Unfortunately nothing was asked or mentioned about the most pressing question - how does this camera perform with M lenses and adapter? This to me is all or nothing....

M lenses, especially wides, require a thin sensor stack to work properly. Hence some extra cost and the risk of weaker protection against moiré, IR and physical damage to the sensor. Been there, i've just broken the "ultra thin" sensor filter of my Kolari mod A7s... Aside from Zeiss and Cosina for their ZM and VM lenses, i see little reason why third party manufacturers would be interested in such a special sensor.  

[darylgo]

6 hours ago, Martin B said:

Unfortunately nothing was asked or mentioned about the most pressing question - how does this camera perform with M lenses and adapter? This to me is all or nothing....

To be determined.  Ibis would be great and will Leica provide it on the next SL body, if so I'd rather stay with the native manufacturer.  

[Martin B]

2 hours ago, lct said:

M lenses, especially wides, require a thin sensor stack to work properly. Hence some extra cost and the risk of weaker protection against moiré, IR and physical damage to the sensor. Been there, i've just broken the "ultra thin" sensor filter of my Kolari mod A7s... Aside from Zeiss and Cosina for their ZM and VM lenses, i see little reason why third party manufacturers would be interested in such a special sensor.  

Nearly every day there is more info coming out that the sensors of the recently released MLCs from Canon, Nikon, and Panasonic seem to be quite different. I just read that the sensor in the Nikon Z camera is very thin, close to the Leica M sensor glass cover thickness. The first M/Z-mount adapters are already advertised. I am not at all convinced by seeing all the choices now that sticking to the original brand environment to use M lenses is the only feasible way to go! I also don't want to spend extra money for a sensor conversion afterwards either. I am very curious what the next weeks/months will bring in new information how M glass performs on these new cameras. Pretty much out of the game for me is Canon R since it is a given that this sensor glass cover is thick (no advantage there compared to Sony). 

[Martin B]

49 minutes ago, darylgo said:

To be determined.  Ibis would be great and will Leica provide it on the next SL body, if so I'd rather stay with the native manufacturer.  

Not gonna happen for me assuming that Leica doesn't drop the price tag 50% and puts a high MP sensor in. Only then I would consider. IBIS is a nice thing to have but not critical for a future camera purchase for me. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Martin B

[Martin B]

3 hours ago, Chaemono said:

So, Panasonic succeeds or fails in FF based on how well these bodies work with M lenses?  You don‘t say!

For me personally, yes. One debit for me with the Panasonic MLCs is already the camera body size, but I would compromise here if M lenses work best compared to other MLC bodies out there other than Leica. I am waiting for reviews about M glass on the high MP Panasonic MLC. I am not interested and not vested in L glass at all (too bulky and too $$$$). 

[Martin B]

4 hours ago, deep said:

With all due respect, that is hardly likely to be the most pressing question for most potential buyers!  How it performs with L mount lenses, on the other hand, will be crucial.

For me it is since I am not vested in L glass and have no interest in getting this kind of lenses for reasons mentioned in my earlier reply above. I expect the Panasonic MLCs to work flawlessly with L glass since they are optimized for its use. I personally don't believe all the no-sayers that M glass won't perform well on those cameras - time will tell, I have no urgency to upgrade and will study the upcoming camera reviews with third party (especially M-) lenses attached well. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by Martin B

[Chaemono]

Panasonic is not the native manufacturer of M glass. Just because there is an M to L-mount mount adapter and one owns M lenses doesn’t make one entitled to demand that Panasonic supports them. There are adapters to use M lenses on Sony’s E mount and on Fuji cameras. Why don’t you go bitchin on Sony forums, Mr. Martin B. Transparent, childish behavior that is totally illogical but one is still trying to frame it like ‘Panasonic better or else they suck. Look at Nikon.’ How pathetic. What a waste of bandwidth. 

[lct]

7 hours ago, Martin B said:

Nearly every day there is more info coming out that the sensors of the recently released MLCs from Canon, Nikon, and Panasonic seem to be quite different. I just read that the sensor in the Nikon Z camera is very thin, close to the Leica M sensor glass cover thickness. The first M/Z-mount adapters are already advertised.

Yes i've seen this as well and it is indeed interesting. The wider M lens advertised there is a Summicron 35 if memory serves. I would not be surprised if wider lenses cause color shifts and/or smeared corners. Sensor stacks like that of my A7s mod (0.7mm) have to be very thin to avoid (edit: rather reduce) that and i would not expect such fragile filters on stock full frame third party sensors but i may be wrong.

Edited October 14, 2018 by lct

[lct]

7 hours ago, Martin B said:

I expect the Panasonic MLCs to work flawlessly with L glass since they are optimized for its use.

Would you have any link to such an optimization? I would have thought that the lack of it is one of the main differences between S1 and SL but again i may be wrong.

[Chaemono]

Cover glass on Z sensor is about 1.1mm, still more than five times thicker than Kolari ultra-thin conversion of 0.2mm. See here: https://kolarivision.com/nikon-z7-dissasembly-teardown/

Working ‘better’ out of the box with adapted  lenses doesn’t mean well enough. Here’s another project, M10 vs. Z7 (Z6 has aa filter) with M lenses and post links to Raw files. I might do it to show the limitations of Nikon FF mirrorless with Leica lenses. I’ll dedicate the project to the Energizer Bunnies.

Edited October 14, 2018 by Chaemono

[lct]

Not sure what Bunnies have to do with this topic but thank you much for this link. This pretty well confirms my feeling and will convince me to stick to modded Sonys i guess.

[Martin B]

12 hours ago, Chaemono said:

Panasonic is not the native manufacturer of M glass. Just because there is an M to L-mount mount adapter and one owns M lenses doesn’t make one entitled to demand that Panasonic supports them. There are adapters to use M lenses on Sony’s E mount and on Fuji cameras. Why don’t you go bitchin on Sony forums, Mr. Martin B. Transparent, childish behavior that is totally illogical but one is still trying to frame it like ‘Panasonic better or else they suck. Look at Nikon.’ How pathetic. What a waste of bandwidth. 

You seem to be very brand-addicted (or maybe even work for Leica?) that you take this obviously personal. Your comment is insulating and shouldn't be part of this forum which discusses gear. You even cite me incorrectly - I said that for ME Panasonic MLC is out of the game if they don't work well with M lenses. But yes, I also referred to Nikon Z here since it is a potential option to adapt M lenses. I said nowhere that Sony is better - it is another alternative for sure which is already well known (as modified one or even unmodified). All have their pros and cons. Future reviews online will tell which of the recently released MLCs work better or worse with Alt lenses and especially with M-lenses, too. 

[BernardC]

13 hours ago, Martin B said:

I just read that the sensor in the Nikon Z camera is very thin, close to the Leica M sensor glass cover thickness.

Maybe this should go without saying...

Nikon has no reason to optimize their sensors for Leica M glass. They have their own extensive back catalogue of F lenses, and their own Nikon customers.

Sensor glass thickness is just one ingredient in Leica's pantry. Other ingredients are micro-lenses on the sensor, and software correction individually tailored to each M lens.

What was true yesterday remains true today, unless someone can conclusively prove otherwise: the best platform for M lenses is an M camera, and the next best is the SL. Tests of the Kolari-modified Sony cameras usually conclude that image quality isn't as good as with an M (even though Sony cameras have higher pixel counts), and the camera becomes optically compromised when using native lenses. So you end-up with a camera that isn't optimized for any lens. Kolari's own product page only claims that some lenses may perform as well as they would on an M9 (a camera that was released a decade ago).

Kolari offers very interesting conversions for IR and UV photography, so I don't mean to criticize them. It's just that their "thin filter" conversions are not a panacea for owners of M lenses who (oddly) do not want to own M cameras. They probably do offer some advantage for a few high-quality SLR lenses from the film era.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Chaemono]

vor 15 Minuten schrieb Martin B:

You seem to be very brand-addicted (or maybe even work for Leica?) that you take this obviously personal. Your comment is insulating and shouldn't be part of this forum which discusses gear. You even cite me incorrectly - I said that for ME Panasonic MLC is out of the game if they don't work well with M lenses. But yes, I also referred to Nikon Z here since it is a potential option to adapt M lenses. I said nowhere that Sony is better - it is another alternative for sure which is already well known (as modified one or even unmodified). All have their pros and cons. Future reviews online will tell which of the recently released MLCs work better or worse with Alt lenses and especially with M-lenses, too. 

‘Please, let us make unsubstantiated claims as we want. Panasonic is out of the game if they don’t support M lenses. You hear this, Panasonic, you’re out of the game. Mr. B says so. Nikon is in the game with their 1.1mm sensor glass cover. Sony is in the MLCs game. So, please, make sure you have micro lenses on your sensor, Panasonic. Otherwise you’re out!’ I guess, they are starting to sweat now at Panasonic and reconsider their sensor design. How pathetic.