New Panasonic Full Frame with SL Mount?

[mmradman]

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...... errr ..... because the camera market is inexorably shrinking and the technology has reached the point where it can fulfil all but the most demanding of users requirements.

 

The only big market left is the 'enthusiastic amateur' ...... which is the only group susceptible to marketing hype and daft enough to change their equipment because Huff, Ken, Tony & Chelsea, Ming and a selection of others tell them to ..... 

 

There are going to be no winners in this war of attrition ...... only survivors. If three people build a raft it's probably going to be better and quicker than if you did it alone ..... Leica has made a good strategic move for long term survival.

 

I realise itis shrinking market and technology demands are higher by the day, only way is to survive is to either cooperate or buy into third party technologies. So no harm in joining forces with compatible partners but let’s not pretend that Leica is selling something it is not anymore. I always said hats off to optics but electronics, hmm.

[mmradman]

I meant they have been openly working with Panasonic for a long time.

I agree this is a good move to stay competitive with a shrinking market at the high end.

Agree, we know of M43 lenses badged Leica and made by Panasonic and compact models designed by Panasonic and sold under both brands, going full frame is really big deal. Actually I am looking forward to see what Sigma can offer with full frame Foveon.

[Chaemono]

If pink rabbit gives you satisfaction enjoy.

I don’t make this personal. I’m just gonna show how Sony files suck. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/288283-high-iso-m10-vs-q/page-7

[mmradman]

I don’t make this personal. I’m just gonna show how Sony files suck. https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/288283-high-iso-m10-vs-q/page-7

Why you telling me about Sony? I don’t own or use anything made by Sony, also have no intention to ever own anything made by Sony since my disappointing laptop, which I replaced with Mac some 7-8 years ago.

[Anika]

Why you telling me about Sony? I don’t own or use anything made by Sony, also have no intention to ever own anything made by Sony since my disappointing laptop, which I replaced with Mac some 7-8 years ago.

 

 

I love my Sony A7R3.....  and still using my Leica Q for vacations

[Tailwagger]

I meant they have been openly working with Panasonic for a long time.

 

I agree this is a good move to stay competitive with a shrinking market at the high end.

 

Certainly, but OTOH, look at the previous level of protectionism related to 6-bit encoding, let alone inviting corrections for Zeiss or CV lenses into the firmware.  Certainly this development does not feel matter of fact. But it does fly in the face of history, at least as I understand it. To their credit, they've begun to see the value of others helping to expand the size of the potential market.  As Jono put it a page or two back, its about selling more SLs, not owning the entirety of the space of photographers that employ L-glass.  That seems like a seismic attitude shift to me. Hopefully they will succeed by leveraging others to ensure their own future. 

[mmradman]

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I love my Sony A7R3.....  and still using my Leica Q for vacations

All contemporary digital cameras are capable of good results, I hope your Sony serves you well.

[LocalHero1953]

I realise itis shrinking market and technology demands are higher by the day, only way is to survive is to either cooperate or buy into third party technologies. So no harm in joining forces with compatible partners but let’s not pretend that Leica is selling something it is not anymore. I always said hats off to optics but electronics, hmm.

I'm puzzled by these assertions (not just by you) about Leica's profitability, sales or other business successes. Can you link to this data? All I've seen are the financial results on earnings and ebit growth. I've seen some reports of sales of individual models, but none of sales vs targets, which is what counts (especially for small volume, high price products).

 

These announcements can be read as signs of failure (we're not selling enough, so let's cash in some assets), or success (we've created something valuable that two other makers desperately want a share of) - without data, who can tell? I suspect that Leica makes more money from lenses than it does from bodies, but it's the bodies that have created the demand for its lenses, and made the system attractive for others to buy into. I doubt that Leica will stop developing L-mount bodies - they need them for the credibility value. And I suspect there will always be people willing to buy them because they can - not as collectors/investors (hardly a big market), but because they actually prefer them to the alternatives.

 

Evidence....data.....too often in short supply on the internet.

[mmradman]

I'm puzzled by these assertions (not just by you) about Leica's profitability, sales or other business successes. Can you link to this data? All I've seen are the financial results on earnings and ebit growth. I've seen some reports of sales of individual models, but none of sales vs targets, which is what counts (especially for small volume, high price products).

 

These announcements can be read as signs of failure (we're not selling enough, so let's cash in some assets), or success (we've created something valuable that two other makers desperately want a share of) - without data, who can tell? I suspect that Leica makes more money from lenses than it does from bodies, but it's the bodies that have created the demand for its lenses, and made the system attractive for others to buy into. I doubt that Leica will stop developing L-mount bodies - they need them for the credibility value. And I suspect there will always be people willing to buy them because they can - not as collectors/investors (hardly a big market), but because they actually prefer them to the alternatives.

 

Evidence....data.....too often in short supply on the internet.

My view is partly based on the observation of the longish list of S/H SL cameras and lenses on Red Dot (London) website, it seems to be getting longer by the day. But hey, what do I know, I was buying R lenses like possessed when everybody else was selling.

 

I think, rightly or wrongly, getting into partnership is a good thing for us consumers, however this new chapter in Leica history is probably imposed by market forces. Customers want megapixels and wide variety of lenses and other accessories fast.

 

Other interesting indicator of the state of affairs is recent launch of M10P, compared to M9P and M240P latest P variant realistically offers very little, quiet shutter may be improvement but all M cameras from day one had reputation for being quiet.

 

Finally, latest S3 offers increased MP in pretty much old S007 body at premium price, there are some unhappy medium format shooters around.

[Nordvik]

The results from last year: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/282740-leica-camera-ag-jahresabschluss-03-0417/

[mmradman]

The results from last year: https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/282740-leica-camera-ag-jahresabschluss-03-0417/

My iPad browser doesn’t provide translation, would have to read tomorrow on my work windows machine.

I am not an accountant so I’ll take even good financial report with pinch of salt or a dose of scepticism. We had well respected and seemingly solid business in UK going bust recently (Carillion being one) and they had brilliant annual reports.

[IkarusJohn]

My iPad browser doesn’t provide translation, would have to read tomorrow on my work windows machine.

I am not an accountant so I’ll take even good financial report with pinch of salt or a dose of scepticism. We had well respected and seemingly solid business in UK going bust recently (Carillion being one) and they had brilliant annual reports.

But it is at least real evidence, as opposed to speculation.

[jaapv]

But it is at least real evidence, as opposed to speculation.

However, the results were closed just after the introduction of the M10 and before the CL, both cameras that are said to be selling above expectation, so it is doubtful whether they indicate a trend.

[IkarusJohn]

However, the results were closed just after the introduction of the M10 and before the CL, both cameras that are said to be selling above expectation, so it is doubtful whether they indicate a trend.

My understanding is that, aside from the glitches with the M8 coffee stain and the M9 corrosion, Leica has been doing well since the release of the M9 (in the sense that the M9, M(240) and M10 have sold so well that Leica has struggled to meet demand - similarly with all L mount lenses).

 

I weary of the doomsday predictions - this system failing, that system not selling, Leica going bust. I seem to recall many experts here saying the same about the S camera; then Leica confirmed that it had sold more than they had planned for.

 

Aside from the odd lapse, I’m happy with what I have, happy with the service from Leica, and they are a company I like dealing with.

[Tailwagger]

I'm puzzled by these assertions (not just by you) about Leica's profitability, sales or other business successes...

Evidence....data.....too often in short supply on the internet.

 

I strongly suspect this move has little to do with Leica's current profitability, which might well be quite rosy at present. This about long term future profit. There simply are no facts to review until we ultimately look backward three to five years hence.  We're therefore more reliant on inductive rather than deductive reasoning as to motivation.

 

One very well documented fact is that the general market for cameras has been shrinking since the invention of the selfie stick. It is equally clear, in some cases stated explicitly, in others by the shift in their product offerings, that the general response of the industry has been to retreat by moving up market where there remains reasonable demand and profit. With the arrival of the CaNikon mirrorless entries, the fight for survival between the high volume commodity producers is now right on Leica's doorstep. What money remains is with the serious, not the casual, photographer. And we, as the pages often serve to demonstrate, can be a rather demanding and fickle lot. 

 

Assuming we accept that the big players have committed to maintaining viability by selling fewer cameras at far higher prices, simply from the goings on this week, we can also surmise that while the target buyer may have changed, the tactics of conquest remain the same.  Sony, Fuji, Canon and Nikon are locked in a technological struggle to one up the other at a pace of introduction that Leica has never demonstrated any capability to equal, at least on the digital side of things. Regardless of how fat the coffers might be today, it's no great leap of reasoning to believe that Leica's survival as a camera manufacturer is predicated on it too being able to reasonably keep pace in what looks increasingly to be a life and death struggle.  From Panasonic's perspective, it feels as though they came to recognize this shift to FF a little too late and that there are rather dire consequences if they fail to catch up.  This agreement gets them a full system with a reason range of optics both in price, size and quality in far less time.  Thus, to my mind, the announcement is very much an acknowledgement by all the participants, not just Leica, that to survive as camera manufacturers requires they pool their strengths to have some hope of capturing sufficient market share to survive the next decade. One wonders how Olympus and Ricoh/Pentax are feeling at the moment. 

[jaapv]

The results are a healthy plus, with the Huawei licence income significantly up, camera turnover 10% down and the rest basically slightly up.

[jaapv]

I strongly suspect this move has little to do with Leica's current profitability, which might well be quite rosy at present. This about long term future profit. There simply are no facts to review until we ultimately look backward three to five years hence.  We're therefore more reliant on inductive rather than deductive reasoning as to motivation.

 

One very well documented fact is that the general market for cameras has been shrinking since the invention of the selfie stick. It is equally clear, in some cases stated explicitly, in others by the shift in their product offerings, that the general response of the industry has been to retreat by moving up market where there remains reasonable demand and profit. With the arrival of the CaNikon mirrorless entries, the fight for survival between the high volume commodity producers is now right on Leica's doorstep. What money remains is with the serious, not the casual, photographer. And we, as the pages often serve to demonstrate, can be a rather demanding and fickle lot. 

 

Assuming we accept that the big players have committed to maintaining viability by selling fewer cameras at far higher prices, simply from the goings on this week, we can also surmise that while the target buyer may have changed, the tactics of conquest remain the same.  Sony, Fuji, Canon and Nikon are locked in a technological struggle to one up the other at a pace of introduction that Leica has never demonstrated any capability to equal, at least on the digital side of things. Regardless of how fat the coffers might be today, it's no great leap of reasoning to believe that Leica's survival as a camera manufacturer is predicated on it too being able to reasonably keep pace in what looks increasingly to be a life and death struggle.  From Panasonic's perspective, it feels as though they came to recognize this shift to FF a little too late and that there are rather dire consequences if they fail to catch up.  This agreement gets them a full system with a reason range of optics both in price, size and quality in far less time.  Thus, to my mind, the announcement is very much an acknowledgement by all the participants, not just Leica, that to survive as camera manufacturers requires they pool their strengths to have some hope of capturing sufficient market share to survive the next decade. One wonders how Olympus and Ricoh/Pentax are feeling at the moment. 

Olympus is firmy in their MFT niche and out of this fight. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pentax paying a polite call to Dr. Kaufmann with the next few years

[jonoslack]

Other interesting indicator of the state of affairs is recent launch of M10P, compared to M9P and M240P latest P variant realistically offers very little, quiet shutter may be improvement but all M cameras from day one had reputation for being quiet.

.

I’m going to pick you up on this one. Previous P models offerred only cosmetic changes (sapphire glass) and sometimes a bigger buffer, nothing else.

This P model has a significantly quieter shutter and a touch screen and also a level gauge. Three significant technical upgrades which previous models didn’t.

 

So I would say that turns your argument precisely upon it’s head!

[dkCambridgeshire]

Olympus is firmy in their MFT niche and out of this fight. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pentax paying a polite call to Dr. Kaufmann with the next few years

 

 

… or vice versa.  Just as in 1949 when Zeiss Contax S originated the Universal M42 SLR Mount, Leica Camera AG, has, in effect, during the last four years, created the 'Universal FF Digital L Mirrorless Mount … and there'll likely be more potential recruits realising the benefits of adopting a proven FF mirrorless mount solution rather than 'going their own expensive ways'.

 

dunk     

Edited September 27, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[apertur]

Leica never communicated who builds the SL lenses for them. Some time ago I read a speculation that it is Sigma but Leica refuses to comment. Now it makes all sense. Camera from Pana and lenses from Sigma.