Really “Is it the end of M road”?

[Chaemono]

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I was waiting the whole time for one of those Independence Day alien spaceships to show up that said ‘Canon’ on it and vaporize Kevin Raber with a plasma gun.

[tobey bilek]

I picked up my Nikon D40 a few days ago after it sat for a long time except for battery charges.  Remember it is 6 MP.  ONLY 6 !!!  

 

The battery was tight after charging ( second and last one) so I ordered 2 more.  After installing I tested it out on my usual full DR target.  Looks good .

 

Photoshop CC has a new image resize,  file-image resize,  and I blew it up to 24 inches x36 on a big screen.   That is 4x native size.   That is good enough for me to use for a daily carry I do not need to worry over.  

 

The new algorithm is only for CC and you have to select it as a special download.   It works way better than the old one.

 

My 36 MP Nikons and 24 MP Leicas may be better,  but they are tanks to carry.  I know one pro who took a real pocket P&S to europe for vacation.   he was tired of carrying cameras pro DSLR.

 

As for LLoyde, he should buy the big pro Leica DSLR or maybe a nice Hasselblad and truck that around for a while.   Perhaps every pollen grain or snowflake will seem less important. 

[pgk]

It's clickbait.  Nothing more.  Consider how many clicks even this thread has generated that will help line Diglloyd's pockets.

 

Diglloyd: opinion for hire.

 

Pete.

 

Its garbage. Absolute rubbish. Nothing more. First (and last) time I've visited the site.

[Luke_Miller]

Just so everyone understands

 

Lloyd's blog has advertisers and the income from those ads is a function of how many visitors he has to his site.  So he posts something controversial to attract viewers and then laughs all the way to the bank.  Its sort of like trolling for profit.  I'm sure he appreciates your comments as they result in additional visits.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Luke_Miller

[otto.f]

Just so everyone understands

 

Lloyd's blog has advertisers and the income from those ads is a function of how many visitors he has to his site.  So he posts something controversial to attract viewers and then laughs all the way to the bank.  Its sort of like trolling for profit.  I'm sure he appreciates your comments as they result in additional visits.

 

 

Oh a sort of Trump

[Guest]

I'm sorry, but isn't this really quite a stupid thread?

If the M goes, I reckon Leica Camera will go down the tubes too. The M series too iconic for Leica to exist without it.

Concerned about the end of the M line? Then get a film M. That'll work for the next forty or fifty years and being mechanical it's likely to be able to be repaired by a decent camera technician as are the M2's and M3's of the 60's. I've got a couple dating from about that time that still work just fine and have been CLA'd maybe twice since new.

Film? It'll still be around......

Digital M's won't have a useful life even half of the mechanical M's, not even close to that. So get a new analogue M and stop worrying.

[ramarren]

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A misconception which Kevin Raber of Luminous Landscape appears to subscribe to:

 

 

 

Gosh, that's a heck of a snore. 

[Herr Barnack]

My advice from experience  to Mr. Chambers would be to find a good optician. High quality spectacles beat more pixels any day.

Fortunately for him Leica has entered this market as well.

 

As for his argument about 8K displays: Red herrings come into mind.

With hardly any suitable content and at  6500 $ they are unlikely to be common for a while, and photographs are prints to most Leica owners.

 

Another point he misses is that the M11 is unlikely to stick at 24 MP. The CL already offers 24MP on APS-c at virtually the same image quality, similarly 20 MP on MFT by Leica's technical partner Panasonic. Extrapolate those pixel densities to Full Frame and you are at 40-50 MP.

 

In other words, one more reason to read more serious and knowledgeable sources.

 

Jaapv nails it.

 

It's true:  Leica makes cameras and lenses other than the M system. 

 

That means Leica is endeavoring to offer photographers other choices/solutions to their photographic needs above and beyond the M system - and will increase their income/profitability in the process.  How that supposedly equates to Leica preparing to retire the M system is a mystery to me. 

 

The M excels at specific kinds of photography.

The S excels at specific kinds of photography.

The SL excels at specific kinds of photography.

 

No one camera or system can excel at everything and Leica understands that.  On the other hand, Lloyd Chambers does not seem to grasp that point - or Leica's philosophy regarding photography in general and M camera photography in specific. 

Edited August 3, 2018 by Herr Barnack

[AdamSinger]

In the same way that publishers rely on books like Fifty Shades Of Grey in order to sell copies of Dostoevsky, and Porsche need their Boxster and Cayenne lines to be able to sell their iconic 911, how are Leica really any different?

 

A Leica M has always been an expensive, and niche model. The company seems to be doing well, and I daresay they sell every M10 they make. If they ceased production of their M variant cameras, they simply wouldn't be Leica any more. At best, they'd be a pale shadow of the former company.

 

I shoot with film and digital M cameras for my personal work, and there really isn't another camera that I find as compact and handy. I love, especially, the simple and useful distance scale on every lens. My M Monochrom Mk1 is *only* 18 megapixels, yet the detail and tones, especially at high ISO settings knock film for six. If that's your thing.

 

Leica resisted making a digital M for so long, the company almost went under. They argued that film was superior to digital. But now that digital, in most respects, has surpassed film, they offer the best of both worlds. In the form of an M camera. 

 

Strikes me that the company is doing everything right.

 

 

I love the idea of a publisher. worrying about how to sell more Dostoevsky," I know, I will wrap it up in 50 bits of soft bondage.” I have wandered through the publishing world and trust me few worry about how to sell more Dostoevsky not least (like the M mount) as it is in the public domain. But I think you are on to some thing, the LHSA bondage edition, an M11.5, ostrich leather bound body , feather case, peek a boo viewfinder and a oh so soft release, could transform the company. After all 50 Shades has earned more than Leica in the same period. So doing well is relative , having cracked that they can really move into the big time with the Henri Cartier-Dumbledore edition, you just shout Oskarbarnackus and you get perfect shots and an exhibition at the Hayward gallery.

Edited August 3, 2018 by AdamSinger

[cp995]

This blog was the biggest BS I ever read

 

Hunting for "clicks" without any sense ...

Edited August 3, 2018 by cp995

[01af]

Yesterday I saw two prints from M (Typ 240) files in 1 × 1.5 m (40 × 60 inch). I stepped up as close as my eyes would focus–the level of detail leaves nothing to be desired. So 24 MP works just fine even for huge prints. The only reason to want more is because others have more. I wouldn't mind having 36 or 48 MP in the next M model ... but that's nothing we utterly need.

 

Regarding that silly 'end of the road' notion ... I expect the next M model to incorporate auto-focus. Seriously. And it will work with any existing M lens as well as adapted screw-mount lenses. Just look at what a Sony Alpha 7 (any model) can do today with an M lens on this M-to-E adapter, and you'll see a glimpse of where the M road is going to go.

[jmahto]

I picked up my Nikon D40 a few days ago after it sat for a long time except for battery charges.  Remember it is 6 MP.  ONLY 6 !!!  

 

The battery was tight after charging ( second and last one) so I ordered 2 more.  After installing I tested it out on my usual full DR target.  Looks good .

 

Photoshop CC has a new image resize,  file-image resize,  and I blew it up to 24 inches x36 on a big screen.   That is 4x native size.   That is good enough for me to use for a daily carry I do not need to worry over.  

 

The new algorithm is only for CC and you have to select it as a special download.   It works way better than the old one.

 

My 36 MP Nikons and 24 MP Leicas may be better,  but they are tanks to carry.  I know one pro who took a real pocket P&S to europe for vacation.   he was tired of carrying cameras pro DSLR.

 

As for LLoyde, he should buy the big pro Leica DSLR or maybe a nice Hasselblad and truck that around for a while.   Perhaps every pollen grain or snowflake will seem less important. 

 

Well said. I have also dusted off my old cameras and surprised by how good pictures were (even resolution wise). They only lack in high ISO reduced noise (and may have different color rendering). Megapixel leap from 6 to 24 is not that huge (one goes from A4 to A2 print size with same DPI. That's all). Recently I have experimented with using Canon P&S A2300 (I bought that for my kiddo long time ago) hacked with CHDK to get DNG (and some other creative control). It is a 16mp camera and gets *quite close* to 24mp sensor output in good light. It is even sharp end to end on the wide side (given its extreme DOF). It is much better than iPhone grab shots and now I carry this along with my film M2 just in case I have to capture something digitally.

 

Lloyd's article is a click bait to support his site. Nothing wrong but with no usefulness to others.

[Reciprocity]

I stopped reading his blog ages ago, one gets the feeling it’s a cash machine and nothing more. Nothing to see here, let’s move along now.

 

The M10 is fine.

The M line is fine.

Leica is fine.

We are all fine, have a great weekend everyone!

[jmahto]

Yesterday I saw two prints from M (Typ 240) files in 1 × 1.5 m (40 × 60 inch). I stepped up as close as my eyes would focus–the level of detail leaves nothing to be desired. So 24 MP works just fine even for huge prints. The only reason to want more is because others have more. I wouldn't mind having 36 or 48 MP in the next M model ... but that's nothing we utterly need.

 

Regarding that silly 'end of the road' notion ... I expect the next M model to incorporate auto-focus. Seriously. And it will work with any existing M lens as well as adapted screw-mount lenses. Just look at what a Sony Alpha 7 (any model) can do today with an M lens on this M-to-E adapter, and you'll see a glimpse of where the M road is going to go.

I have my doubts on Leica going AF for M lens route. For one, what happens to the FLE optimization? 

[cp995]

I have my doubts on Leica going AF for M lens route...

 

Same to me!

I think Leica M with rangefinder stays puristic as it is with the M10.

AF is provided with the SL.

 

But it may happen, that there might be an AF Adapter (like the Thechart/Sony) for SL Users, to have fun with M-lenses too.

Why not ...

[jaapv]

Because Leica will not accept the loss of quality with lenses with floating elements, nor can find any space at all in the M mount to even fit an adapter for M lenses. The register distance is a given.

The only technical possiblity would be a movable-focussing sensor, which would add at least 12-15 mm to the body depth, which is completely unrealistic. The other option would be an AF line of M lenses, which poses severe, if not insurmountable difficulties through the lack of electrical connections.

[jdlaing]

 

 

......... The other option would be an AF line of M lenses, which poses severe, if not insurmountable difficulties through the lack of electrical connections.

And size. They would be a monstrosity.

[pgk]

Because Leica will not accept the loss of quality with lenses with floating elements, nor can find any space at all in the M mount to even fit an adapter for M lenses. The register distance is a given.

The only technical possiblity would be a movable-focussing sensor, which would add at least 12-15 mm to the body depth, which is completely unrealistic. The other option would be an AF line of M lenses, which poses severe, if not insurmountable difficulties through the lack of electrical connections.

 

Technical constraints do not apply to a 'belief system'.

[01af]

Because Leica will not accept the loss of quality with lenses with floating elements ...

That loss would be minor and well worth the trade-off if you'd get AF in exchange. And you'd always have the option to not use the AF and focus manually, fully taking advantage of any floating elements. Using the AF would be optional; it could be switched on or off as desired. The current Macro-Adapter-M also circumvents floating elements—and yet, users officially are encouraged to use it with any M lens, not just with the Macro-Elmar-M 90 mm.

 

 

... nor can find any space at all in the M mount to even fit an adapter for M lenses.

Unlike Sony cameras, M cameras don't need adapters to fit M lenses. Get it?

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jdlaing]

That loss would be minor and well worth the trade-off if you'd get AF in exchange. And you'd always have the option to not use the AF and focus manually, fully taking advantage of any floating elements. Using the AF would be optional; it could be switched on or off as desired. The current Macro-Adapter-M also circumvents floating elements—and yet, users officially are encouraged to use it with any M lens, not just with the Macro-Elmar-M 90 mm.

 

 

Unlike Sony cameras, M cameras don't need adapters to fit M lenses. Get it?

You need a motor to turn the focus cam on an M lens. Where would you put it?