Leica CM / ML?/ New Leica Mirrorless Announcement

[euston]

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So I suppose that, if we were to agree with your reasoning, the following would be frowned upon:

 

Freedom of expression.

Freedom of thought. 

Freedom to dream.

 

Sounds like a really fun world...

 

It is pointless speculation that Dunk frowns upon. Long may he be free to express that thought and to dream of a forum free of unfounded rumours! Would you deny him the freedoms you would grant yourself?

 

What a strange forum it would be if the only freedom we enjoyed was the freedom to agree with one another. It ought to be possible to disagree with someone without accusing them of being a threat to freedom. Don’t you agree?

[jonatdonuts]

Why, of course!

 

I would also hope that we can build a culture in this forum wherein people's ideas for new cameras, systems, and improvements, are encouraged and nurtured. 

 

Leica is apparently a company that listens. In this respect, we should speak. They and many of us are smart enough to know which ideas are realistic and which are...ahead of the times. And who are we to say someone should not share their dreams? 

 

After all, sometimes the best ideas come from a little craziness. The Leica Q is perhaps the latest example...

 

It is pointless speculation that Dunk frowns upon. Long may he be free to express that thought and to dream of a forum free of unfounded rumours! Would you deny him the freedoms you would grant yourself?

 

What a strange forum it would be if the only freedom we enjoyed was the freedom to agree with one another. It ought to be possible to disagree with someone without accusing them of being a threat to freedom. Don’t you agree?, 

Edited July 26, 2018 by jonatdonuts

[IkarusJohn]

Why, of course!

 

I would also hope that we can build a culture in this forum wherein people's ideas for new cameras, systems, and improvements, are encouraged and nurtured. 

 

Leica is apparently a company that listens. In this respect, we should speak. They and many of us are smart enough to know which ideas are realistic and which are...ahead of the times. And who are we to say someone should not share their dreams? 

 

After all, sometimes the best ideas come from a little craziness. The Leica Q is perhaps the latest example...

 

 

Read the rumours threads here, and you'll get plenty of craziness, and expectations based on nothing at all.  

 

Yet, most of us are interested in what might come next and there is a lot of useful discussion.  Regrettably, too much of it is mixed in claims which appear to have authority but have no base in reality at all.  It would be good to have two lists, (1) what's likely to come next (based in what Leica actually says and what is realistic) and (2) wild speculation.

 

It won't happen.  So Dunk and others (myself included from time to time) will challenge and sometime pour cold water on the sillier ideas.  That's what open discussion is about, surely.

[lct]

Not sure what pointless speculation is, something like fake news? Just kidding but i don't need any cold water to know if a speculation is interesting or not personally. YMMV.

[IkarusJohn]

Yep, fake news; or the over-excitement of the credulous ...

[dkCambridgeshire]

I prefer to spend valuable time designing / planning / executing a photograph rather than waste time second guessing what the next Leica camera body might offer. When a photo project 'pays off', the positive sense of achievement and satisfaction is far greater than the disappointments that forum camera design speculators likely feel when the rumoured camera bodies don't happen. Unfortunately, speculators' repeated 'self & co-brainwashing', convinces them so firmly something is afoot, that the advice of those 'in the know', who try to counter the false rumours with sensible and logical reasoning, is ignored or disbelieved … and speculators continue to work themselves up even more into states of false expectation. And then when they finally realise the announcement is actually not forthcoming, they end up dazed and disillusioned … until a few weeks have passed when they might start re-speculating all over again. 

 

dunk 

Edited July 26, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

[Jeff S]

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I remember not long ago when some here laughed at (and even derided) the notion that there might be a digital M without a screen, and before that, a monochrome sensor M. Some of them now own one or both.

 

I started this thread based on a rumor from Leica Rumors site, which had been very accurate since the M9. But even after doubling down on the rumor, it didn’t come to be, and has since been shot down by Leica. But here we are, over 600 posts later, and the discussion continues. We love to debate... and to inject own own preferences and peeves.

 

As far as listening to Leica, even that strategy has proved problematic lately, as the Rumors speculation was additionally fueled by Dr. Kaufmann’s comment to LuLa’s Kevin Raber that we’d see new potential for the L mount in June, 2018. Not.

 

For me, it’s entertainment. These are already abundantly rich times for camera gear, most of which is already beyond our needs. Fun nonetheless.

 

Jeff

[bags27]

Everyone has her/his opinion on speculation. Emerson loved it; Carlyle despised it: they were close friends their entire lives.

 

The Apostle Paul put forward the "good news". Yet, the parousia did not happen and throughout his letters he continued to suggest that the 2nd coming would happen "soon," with "soon" being later and later. We don't call that "fake news." We call that an honest belief. (i'm not a Christian, but I respect what Paul thought he knew or hoped would happen.)

Edited July 26, 2018 by bags27

[jonatdonuts]

A few years back a university student posted a concept for the Leica X3. It was a disk shaped camera that swivelled and split in half. A crazy, radical design that, nevertheless, captured Leica’s interest.

 

Leica ended up giving that student an internship and, after graduation, a job to lead design a new camera concept.

 

That student was Vincent Laine. The camera was the Leica Q.

 

Of course, people are free to pour cold water over other people’s ideas. It’s just that such an attitude does not really nurture innovation. And it would certainly make this forum a very, very boring place.

[IkarusJohn]

Oh yes, I completely derided the idea of a Monochrom sensor - what a stupid idea!  Both was I wrong when Leica announced the camera.  I still thought it was stupid.  Then I started playing with Jono's DNG files from China, and was completely hooked.  I persuaded Leica to make one for me in silver chrome, and it is my favourite M camera (my only M digital).

 

Guess that's the fun of these threads.

 

The M60 was also a camera I really loved - I regret selling it.

[jaapv]

Same here. I didn't believe that a monochrome sensor made any sense. Yet after using Jono's pre-release one at the introduction and opening my test shots that evening I got on the phone to my dealer from my hotel room the next morning and secured the first one delivered to the Netherlands. 

 

I still don't see the attraction  of an LCD-less digital camera though, but that is surely just me.

[Le Chef]

"What if?" questions and conjecture are integral components of creativity. If you don't ask the question, don't dream, the answer will always be the same, and that's "No", and that means no to progress.

[dkCambridgeshire]

"What if?" questions and conjecture are integral components of creativity. If you don't ask the question, don't dream, the answer will always be the same, and that's "No", and that means no to progress.

 

 

 

Agreed … But fact is, some forum armchair camera designers have put forward unrealistic and ergonomically impossible 'ideas' in the past … and also voiced very unreasonable and unwarranted criticisms of new Leica products … likely to the detriment of Leica camera sales … because some of them do not appreciate what is practical / feasible to offer … especially as regards lens' apertures, focal lengths and zoom ranges - and also as regards the lenses' physical dimensions (including weights) . And the way the armchair designers propose the ideas it's as if they expect their brilliant new camera designs to appear as if by magic within a few months … whereas it's a fact that a new camera takes several years to reach prototype stage.  Fact is, Leica knows very much more about camera design than any of us and is very aware of the latest technologies about which we know little.   Leica Camera AG is a very innovative company and very progress orientated … e.g. witness the SL 601 EVF which was at least 3 years ahead of competitors offerings and is still the 'benchmark' finder …. even though there are those on this forum (who, incidentally, do not use modern Leica digital cameras)  who have unfairly criticised it from Day 1.  

 

dunk 

Edited July 27, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

[adan]

Since the subject came up - anyone want to dream of an SL or CL Monochrom?

 

(after putting cat among pigeons, reaches for hat )

[bags27]

Agreed … But fact is, some forum armchair camera designers have put forward unrealistic and ergonomically impossible 'ideas' in the past … and also voiced very unreasonable and unwarranted criticisms of new Leica products … likely to the detriment of Leica camera sales … because some of them do not appreciate what is practical / feasible to offer …

dunk 

Dunk--I seriously doubt that. And, were it true, it's up to Leica to respond quickly to debunk such rumors--something they did not bother to do until after the supposed date of the introduction of the "C-M." I don't see why Leica couldn't explain what is and is not currently possible with such a desired camera. It's not as if every other camera maker in the world doesn't already know the mechanical and digital limitations of their products. 

 

Fact is, product companies--especially of products owned by the aspirational class--thrive on such unrealistic hopes. If you have a few spares hours (maybe it's spare days required now), check out the many thousands of posts/speculations of the two new Nikon "Z mount" mirrorless lenses. The company is leaking partial pictures and descriptions ahead of the August 23 launch to build up expectations that are now completely over the top. But Nikon doesn't worry about future disappointment, only current lack of interest.

Edited July 28, 2018 by bags27

[dkCambridgeshire]

Since the subject came up - anyone want to dream of an SL or CL Monochrom?

 

(after putting cat among pigeons, reaches for hat )

 

 

… which would likely eat into and compromise the relatively low sales of the M 246 Monochrome … Thus can imagine Leica Camera AG's reaction to such a proposed camera.

 

dunk 

Edited July 28, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

[dkCambridgeshire]

Dunk--I seriously doubt that. And, were it true, it's up to Leica to respond quickly to debunk such rumors--something they did not bother to do until after the supposed date of the introduction of the "C-M." I don't see why Leica couldn't explain what is and is not currently possible with such a desired camera. It's not as if every other camera maker in the world doesn't already know the mechanical and digital limitations of their products. 

 

Fact is, product companies--especially of products owned by the aspirational class--thrive on such unrealistic hopes. If you have a few spares hours (maybe it's spare days required now), check out the many thousands of posts/speculations of the two new Nikon "Z mount" mirrorless lenses. The company is leaking partial pictures and descriptions ahead of the August 23 launch to build up expectations that are now completely over the top. But Nikon doesn't worry about future disappointment, only current lack of interest.

 

 

I remember all the unfair criticisms of the X Vario by those on this forum who have never used the camera or any other modern Leica digital camera for any length of time … and who did not have a clue about the XV's  imaging potential …

 

And similarly recall the unfair criticism of the SL 601 .. and its EVF … when forum critics categorically stated it would never be accepted as a professional camera ... whereas now there are many professionals using it and pro workshops organised by Leica Camera AG.   

 

 

 And some forum members criticised the M10 … quite unfairly . They seem to want to criticise new Leica camera releases just for the sake of criticising … and they continue criticising repeatedly … and they get away with it. And they also put forward ridiculous ideas for old fashioned camera designs which they expect Leica Camera AG to listen to and implement.  

 

dunk 

[jaapv]

Sometimes they get their way too...  

[lct]

Indeed and fanboyism has its limits too. The LUF would not have its reputation if it were a lobby group for Leica.

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Hallo,

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[Le Chef]

In some ways it’s like Porsche or Harley aficionados harrumphing about moving from the old to some heretical new design. Not every change is going to please everyone. But you cannot be rigid about the evolution of design and technology - you have to let it move forward or you atrophy. Enthusiasts should dream - but they have to accept disappointment as part of that process. Sometimes an engineer or designer will see something in the flawed dream of an enthusiast that inspires them - that’s what dreams are for.