Leica CM / ML?/ New Leica Mirrorless Announcement

[lct]

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I agree the 55 f1.8 is a good lens - but you can’t test it side by side on an A7 unless you’ve done the Kolari mod [...]

 

Never tested it side by side but the FE 55/1.8 is indeed a great lens on the A7s mod. Sharper than the M 50/2 non apo in my experience but the M 50/2 apo is even sharper at faster apertures especially at corners and edges. Pity that the FE 55/1.8 has no aperture ring and that its accessory hood is so big though. I would rather choose a ZM 50/2 if i were after a standard Zeiss lens but the FE 55/1.8 is certainly hard to beat for AF users.

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[jonatdonuts]

GENIUS. Crazy, but GENIUS  

Now if only the CM would come with a front-back moving sensor that enables partially autofocus on M lenses...
 

[Chaemono]

Just because speculation is so much fun.

 

I'd say so far the community here is about evenly split with some experienced users dismissing the Leica Rumors article as total baloney and others saying it may make perfect commercial sense to broaden the L mount system offering this way. I was hoping more for an MF L mount body when Dr. Kaufmann said "more opportunities for this mount." 

 

Let's assume there is some truth to the Leica Rumors' rumor and that this will indeed be a camera with 'outstanding low light high dynamic range capabilities'. The only way this sensor is complementary to the SL and doesn't upset users who have been hoping for an upgrade of the SL itself is if it's not more than 24 MPx. The α7 III sensors has according to PetaPixel 'amazing low-light performance.' 'At ISO 12800 the a7 III is "still ridiculously clean." The a7R III is "useable,"'...DR of the α7 III could also be slightly better according to Sony. So, there we have it. Get SL users to buy the CL as a 24 MPx range extender and the C-M (CM) as a 24 MPx BSI low-light monster. This would still allow for a Q2 with a 40 MPx BSI sensor to be announced at this year's Photokina and that sensor will then be used for the SL2 next year.

[onasj]

Now if only the CM would come with a front-back moving sensor that enables partial autofocus on M lenses...

 

 

 

At the risk of awkwardly replying to my own post, after doing a bit of research into this possibility, it doesn't see quite as farfetched as I initially thought:

 

- The Mamiya Six is a 1940s-50s rangefinder that focused by moving the film plane rather than lens elements: http://camerapedia.wikia.com/wiki/Mamiya_Six

 

- The Contax AX is a 1990s SLR designed to autofocus manual focus lenses by moving the film plane: 

 

- Canon filed a 2016 patent application on a movable digital sensor assembly that moves front-and-back to autofocus legacy MF lenses with contrast detection: https://www.imaging-resource.com/news/2016/02/29/canon-wants-to-patent-a-movable-sensor-assembly-that-promises-better-movie

 

I suspect based on some rough math that the distance that an M-sized camera could move its sensor would not nearly be enough to enable full autofocus, but I think it would enable precision autofocus starting from a ballpark manual focus.  So for manual focus lenses such as the awesome line of Leica M lenses, you would use the EVF (or OVF) to approximately focus the subject, then press an AF button that would adjust the sensor-to-mount distance ± a few mm to nail the precise focus at a user-specified point on the sensor (like the CL's touch focus mode) using contrast detection.  I suspect this method would not be substantially slower than rangefinder focus on an M since most of the time I spend focusing my M10 is on the fine adjustment at the end of the focusing process, but would increase the hit rate for challenging subjects, would enable us to "AF assist" our M lenses, and would enable these wonderful lenses to take advantage of the latest Leica full-frame sensor.

 

The above is all a pipe dream, and, I realize, unlikely.  But as long as we are dreaming, I hold out some hope that it's not impossible.

Edited May 31, 2018 by onasj

[jonoslack]

Jono, point well taken, but consistent with my observations, Leica lenses 50 mm or longer have little difficulty achieving their acuity potential, especially in the center of the field, on the A7riii. Indeed, my copy of the 50 APO continues to outresolve the middle of the 42 MP center on the A7riii, so it is not limited by adaptation to the Sony body. The corners are softer but my comparison with between the 55/1.8 and the 50/APO was center-to-center.

Hi There

Honestly, the centre may be fine, but the corners are not - certainly up to and including 50mm. Most people do this sort of testing at 6 or 8 ft with a chart on a wall, but remember, the problem gets worse as the rear element gets closer to the sensor - which is as you approach infinity. Stopping down doesn’t help much either. Try doing comparative tests of a wall at 50m or so - even the 50 lux smears a good third of the way into the frame. Sean Reid and I have discussed this at length and come to the conclusion that it really isn’t worth using M lenses on anything with a thicker cover glass.

 

The Kolari mod really does sort things out (not with colour shifts, but with smearing), which indicates that it is mainly to do with the thickness of the coverglass.

 

This isn’t meant as a criticism of Sony or anyone else (why should they embrace the disadvantages of a thinner cover glass just to sell more Leica lenses?)

[frame-it]

i thought you might say use this sensor on the SL2

 

https://www.phase1vision.com/sensors/canon-sensors/area-scan-sensors/120-megapixel-cmos

 

 

 

Just because speculation is so much fun.

 

I'd say so far the community here is about evenly split with some experienced users dismissing the Leica Rumors article as total baloney and others saying it may make perfect commercial sense to broaden the L mount system offering this way. I was hoping more for an MF L mount body when Dr. Kaufmann said "more opportunities for this mount." 

 

Let's assume there is some truth to the Leica Rumors' rumor and that this will indeed be a camera with 'outstanding low light high dynamic range capabilities'. The only way this sensor is complementary to the SL and doesn't upset users who have been hoping for an upgrade of the SL itself is if it's not more than 24 MPx. The α7 III sensors has according to PetaPixel 'amazing low-light performance.' 'At ISO 12800 the a7 III is "still ridiculously clean." The a7R III is "useable,"'...DR of the α7 III could also be slightly better according to Sony. So, there we have it. Get SL users to buy the CL as a 24 MPx range extender and the C-M (CM) as a 24 MPx BSI low-light monster. This would still allow for a Q2 with a 40 MPx BSI sensor to be announced at this year's Photokina and that sensor will then be used for the SL2 next year.

[pico]

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My Nikon lenses are AF and not huge at all.

 

Could that be because the focusing motor is in the camera body? How big is the body?

Edited May 31, 2018 by pico

[frame-it]

the 35mm / f2  [CS] Zeiss on the sony rx1 is also tiny compared to quite a few AF lenses

 

My Nikon lenses are AF and not huge at all.

 

DSC01337_after_si_web.jpg

Edited May 31, 2018 by frame-it

[lct]

Could that be because the focusing motor is in the camera body? How big is the body?

 

My Nikkor 50/1.4 is from the nineties but the current version with AF motor (AF-S Nikkor 50/1.4G) is not huge either (73 x 54mm, 420g). 

[adan]

It helps a lot if one uses plastic instead of brass/aluminum for the barrel.

 

Hmm - from your own numbers. AF-S G: 73mm x 54mm = volume of 229966 mm³

 

Leica 50 Summilux ASPH (Leica's numbers): 53.5mm x 52.5mm = volume of 118020 mm³

 

Your Nikkor takes up twice the bag-space as the Summilux. And weighs 25% more, even with plastic construction. And that still doesn't take into account the big "bulge" on the front of a Nikon (that equates to part of the "lens length" optically - won't function right without it). For a direct comparison on a given mirrorless camera, you'd have to add in the extra thickness of a NF-xxx adapter, as compared to the thickness of an M-xxx adapter.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Fotasy-AMNK-Thirds-System-Adapter/dp/B002U4QP9O/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_421_lp_t_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=7WFVPDQ8J8VC67X66PYD

 

https://www.amazon.com/Fotodiox-Adapter-Olympus-Panasonic-Cameras/dp/B002RJFD7C

 

However, there is a fixed size that tracks with longer focal lengths - a 300mm lens, or even a 90 f/2, has to have a certain minimum size to function optically. Focal length "length," and aperture diameter - we can't make an E46 90mm f/2 because the glass itself has to be 45mm diameter (90mm/2) - plus barrel thickness. And that gives a larger volume into which the AF and auto-aperture devices can be fitted without as much extra volume, percentage-wise. Thus the Nikkor 300mm f/4 PF, which does come in at:

 

D 89mm x L 147.5mm (prismatic lens element) x W 755g

 

vs. Leica-R 280 f/4 APO at: D88mm x L 208mm x W 1875g

 

Even the longer Fuji-X teles get pretty big and hefty - 400mm requires ~400mm, with or without AF.

[scott kirkpatrick]

What an entertaining waste of time this thread is!  We have multiple realities with only occasional points of overlap that we are each generalizing from.  In my reality, Leica seems to succeed only with models that do something exceptionally well. and that is what they will try to continue doing (as it allows charging extremely high prices).  That's why I think we will hear about more lenses for the L mount, with some for APS-C coverage.  Making a major step ahead in video fits that model as well.  Sony with their S models and Panasonic with its GH-5 have shown that fewer, bigger pixels and appropriate operational enhancements can lead to a camera that has a solid market and fits the rumor dimensions (better high ISO for stills, too).  This is also a less challenging development effort for a company that has released new mirrorless bodies at a rate of better than one per year.  In the past it was more like 2 years per product introduction.

[pico]

What an entertaining waste of time this thread is!  We have multiple realities with only occasional points of overlap that we are each generalizing from. [... snip excellent article. please see the post.]

 

Scott, is the take-away that consumers prefer greater dynamic range, adequate resolution, all constrained to computer displays; little regard for print quality larger than, say, 8x10" ? IOW - home and 'net presentations.

 

That is my take on the state of consumer expectations.

Edited May 31, 2018 by pico

[scott kirkpatrick]

Well, I'm taking myself for an example, which is dangerous, and I would agree with you.  I very seldom get things printed, but displays are getting steadily bigger.  However, even a 5K (or soon 6K) isn't exhausting 24 MPx.  I think the change in professional photo practice is the need to provide both still and video services to an ever larger fraction of customers.  I read Kirk Tuck's blog, and his workload is now 50-50.  I suspect Irakly see that as well.  And I'd like to know from Ingo and others how many are offering both still and video.  The last wedding I attended that wasn't offscale fancy, was recorded by three Canon cameras of similar type, two for still and one for video.  No frames or gimbals.  The video guy had a recorder in his pocket and pulled out a microphone to capture the vows.  I think pro sports is just a niche.  And Leica does fashion.  Ask what these customers need, as I am sure Leica is asking.

[lct]

[...] Hmm - from your own numbers. AF-S G: 73mm x 54mm = volume of 229966 mm3

Leica 50 Summilux ASPH (Leica's numbers): 53.5mm x 52.5mm = volume of 118020 mm3 [...]

 

I don't know how to calculate volumes this way but Leica Summilux-SL 50/1.4 ASPH: 124mm x 88mm = volume of ?

[Exodies]

radius squared * length * pi

[Herr Barnack]

Am I the only one who now finds Leica's various offerings very confusing? To be further complicated by yet another body.

 

Perhaps it's because I don't have the money to spend on a CL, CM, SL, S, T, TL2, Q or anything else, but if I did, I might worry that all these different cameras show a scatter-gun approach to camera development.

 

I know that some of them have the same lens mount, but for the life of me I couldn't tell you which ones and whether the lenses work properly on more than one body.

 

You know where you are with an M.

 

I'm in 100% agreement.

 

Of all the smaller digital cameras that Leica has created and released on the market, the new CL with the 18mm lens ( #19304) is the only one of the non-M cameras that interests me. 

 

As I am tragically not a wealthy robber baron, I will pass on the CL and focus on getting an M10 body.

 

Unless it starts to rain diamonds at my house.

Edited June 1, 2018 by Herr Barnack

[lx1713]

Well, I'm taking myself for an example, which is dangerous, and I would agree with you.  I very seldom get things printed, but displays are getting steadily bigger.  However, even a 5K (or soon 6K) isn't exhausting 24 MPx.  I think the change in professional photo practice is the need to provide both still and video services to an ever larger fraction of customers.  I read Kirk Tuck's blog, and his workload is now 50-50.  I suspect Irakly see that as well.  And I'd like to know from Ingo and others how many are offering both still and video.  The last wedding I attended that wasn't offscale fancy, was recorded by three Canon cameras of similar type, two for still and one for video.  No frames or gimbals.  The video guy had a recorder in his pocket and pulled out a microphone to capture the vows.  I think pro sports is just a niche.  And Leica does fashion.  Ask what these customers need, as I am sure Leica is asking.

 

 

Well if the new L camera is aimed at pros who does events or documentary work then a camera that is able to do low light stills and video is an excellent fit. For higher resolution, the SL can accommodate that need of 24mp. My jobs are beginning to reflect that need for both stills and video. 12mp is all that's needed for a lot of this. Or 4K at full frame and 1080 at crop.

 

At 12mp, AF should be faster too in low light conditions.

 

The question is whether the market will respond? I think the pull factor will be Leica lenses as always.

Edited June 1, 2018 by lx1713

[adan]

I don't know how to calculate volumes this way but Leica Summilux-SL 50/1.4 ASPH: 124mm x 88mm = volume of ?

 

Yessir - 88/2 (radius) = 44. 44² = 1936 * pi = 6082 * 124mm = 754183 mm³. Indeed, pretty big. Why I shoot M and not SL.

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[dereken]

Noted on final output quality. The gap between brands is getting smaller and smaller due to computer aided designs and software correction.

 

But think of it like this: in 5 years you will most likely need to buy a new Fuji lens. In 65 years your grandchildren will still be using your Leica lens. 

 

I used my original Fuji X100 in drizzle, sand and dust for years with no problems. They're built better than most non-pro cameras.

 

There's also a 5% chance that anyone's grandchildren here will be also interested in niche manual focus cameras. But they may be able to sell your lenses on eBay to buy the latest iPhone.

[dereken]

As some outstanding non-Leica lenses have already demonstrated, it is possible for a full-frame lens to offer outstanding optical quality, relatively wide aperture, autofocus, and compact size.

Consider the Sony FE 55/1.8 Zeiss:

- Ultra sharp wide open, quite comparable in sharpness to the 50 APO in fact (I have tested both on the a7rIII side by side)

- 0.50-meter MFD (20 cm shorter than that of most Leica 50 mm lenses)

- 64 mm diameter (1.1 cm fatter than the 50 lux-M)

- 71 mm length (1.7 cm longer than the 50 lux-M)

- 281 grams (54 grams lighter than the 50 lux-M)

- Excellent AF performance (much better AF than that of the 50 lux-M   )

 

I have faith that Leica's lens engineers are up to the task of making AF lenses that perform at least as well as this Sony gem, in a comparable or even smaller package, over the next 24 months.

 

If indeed the new CM is a compact M-like camera with an L mount and an amazing (SL-esque) EVF, and a sensor that is superior to that of the M10 (which is already decent), then I will be first in line to buy one.  Best of all, we would continue to use our treasured M lenses on the CM.  Heck, we would presumably even be able to use our CL lenses on the CM (with cropping).

 

Hmm...

 

Leica SL 50mm 1.4 = 1065g

Sony-Zeiss 50mm 1.4 = 778g

 

Leica SL 90mm 2 = 700g

Sony-Zeiss 85mm 1.8 = 475g

 

Leica SL 24-90 2.8-4 = 1140g

Sony 24-70 2.8 = 886g

 

Leica SL 16-35mm 3.5-4.5 = 990g

Sony 16-35mm 2.8 = 680g

 

There seems to be a trend that SL lenses are 1.3-1.4x heavier than Sony FE lenses, probably because of better materials, build and (marginally better) optics.

 

So if the Sony-Zeiss 55mm 1.8 is 281g, then we can expect a Leica 50mm Summicron-SL to be around 370g.

 

Of course, this is just an educated guess.