Leica CM / ML?/ New Leica Mirrorless Announcement

[Jeff S]

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According to Leica Rumors....

 

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/28/new-leica-mirrorless-camera-to-be-announced-in-june-leica-c-m.aspx/

 

Jeff

[jonatdonuts]

So turns out the June 14th announcement is a whole new interchangeable lens full frame camera with a couple of L lenses in the mix. 

 

The 'M' in the name would suggest an M sized body, but as its an L mount the lenses would most probably be autofocus. Given the current SL lenses are massive, the new set of lenses could be more compact versions, cut from the same cloth as the Q's 28mm Summilux. 

 

However, given there's a Q2 in the works, this direction maybe a little bit confusing.

 

Thoughts? 

 

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/28/new-leica-mirrorless-camera-to-be-announced-in-june-leica-c-m.aspx/#more-52445  

 

[Jeff S]

Also posted here...

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/285077-new-leica-mirrorless-announcement/?do=findComment&comment=3527262

 

Jeff

[adan]

I would not count too much on an interchangeable lens FF camera with the same small lens size as the Q's 28mm.

 

That lens is "bespoke" to the Q, and requires serious in-camera correction processing for massive barrel distortion to be as small as it is. For Leica to provide interchangeable lenses as small for the focal length and speed would require the hypothetical CM to manage such distortions (or other aberrations) across multiple lenses - while avoiding them at all when using legacy lenses (M, R, previous SL). And it rather runs against the grain of "Leica lens quality" to have to "fix" the pictures from multiple lenses with digital processing across a major system, as opposed to a more niche fixed-lens camera.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/246312-q-28mm-lens-design/

 

However, a "smaller SL" and a range of slower (and thus smaller) lenses, making use of the "new sensor with outstanding low-light...capabilities" might work. I'm all for a "smaller SL" - it would remove the folks trying to hijack the M10 for that purpose.

 

Anyway, I guess we'll see what Leica is really doing soon enough.

[Fgcm]

The only reason why I didn't buy the current SL are weight and size.

A small and lite SL would be very welcome in my camera bag.

I could use my M lenses as well as some SL autofocus and tele when necessary.

To many benefits to regret for not having an OVF

I'm very happy to read that Leica is set to give me the camera I've been asking for to my dealer since the very first time I tried the SL a few years ago.

Nonetheless I will not trade my beloved M camera.

[Exodies]

My guess is it will be a total revolution in M cameras. Full frame, optical rangefinder, M mount, 24 M pixels with a fixed baseplate.

[Alistairm]

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https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/28/new-leica-mirrorless-camera-to-be-announced-in-june-leica-c-m.aspx/

 

Leica CM... a reference to the rather awesome compact film camera of old. Very, very interested to see what this looks like... a bridge between the SL and the CL.

 

I hope with a small native 35mm or 40mm Cron as the kit lens, although that is a pipe dream and there is no suggestion of that in the rumours.

 

If, like the original CM, it takes styling cues from the M then it will sell like hot cakes as the “M with an EVF”, but it’s awesome that Leica is committed to the L mount.

Edited May 29, 2018 by Alistairm

[helged]

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/28/new-leica-mirrorless-camera-to-be-announced-in-june-leica-c-m.aspx/

 

Leica CM... a reference to the rather awesome compact film camera of old. Very, very interested to see what this looks like... a bridge between the SL and the CL.

 

I hope with a small native 35mm or 40mm Cron as the kit lens, although that is a pipe dream and there is no suggestion of that in the rumours.

 

If, like the original CM, it takes styling cues from the M then it will sell like hot cakes as the “M with an EVF”, but it’s awesome that Leica is committed to the L mount.

Full support for the latter; the L-mount is the new M-mount for Leica. Not implying that the M-mount is dead, but that future M-developments are, by construction, limited. That being said, I still love to use manual lenses, whether on M, CL or SL.

Edited May 29, 2018 by helged

[jaapv]

Which would be  a logical step. The miniaturization of the M10 can well be applied to the SL. Add Q/CL styling and upgrade the sensor and you are basically done.

Next problem: what about these huge SL lenses?  A couple of Summicron-L lenses? Even Elmarit-L?

[LichtUndDunkelheit]

Well that sounds like a more conventional version of the SL. I.e. the mount and sensor size of the SL, but more conventional ergonomics.

 

How well did the CL get received, anyway ? Camerastore on YouTube doesnt say often they hate a camera, but they hated the CL for its poorly done ergonomics.

[Wojtek]

Advantage over CL is obvious - full frame. But I wonder how will it compare to the SL. Because, to be competitive in a Leica world (better for some people than CL and SL) - it's easy. Simply make a smaller SL and throw out some benefits of the SL (not to make it too good!). But to make it competitive in a not-only-Leica-world, I think Leica should put in this little® camera all it got without restraining itself with "it can't be better than SL". 

 

Because there already is one camera which is full frame and smaller than SL on the market - Sony a7 III. 

Of course it's absolutely not as well made. Of course it's uglier. And of course, it doesn't. have a red dot. But besides that, let's simply say it's a worthy competitor.

 

I'd love this camera to be a smaller, better SL. But that could be a dangerous decision for the future of SL (as CL was for TL).

 

 

Edit. If a "smaller, FF, L-mount" is a given, I think it's pretty possible to make a great camera which will be great and won't kill SL at the same time. It'll almost surely be 24mp. That's little for SL2, but just fine for CM. So I'd love it to go like that:

Soon - CM, smaller and better than SL with 24mp (and for a while until SL2 comes out, it will be better than the SL in every way)

Later - S with a lot of MP

Later - SL with ~50mp and even better specs than CM.

 

But I really hope CM won't be handicapped in any single way (""except"" 24mp which isn't really such a trade off, although it probably is the last generations of cameras where it's considered "good"). And I really think it doesn't have to. 

Edited May 29, 2018 by Wojtek

[toyfel]

I just hope this FF cammera comes with a line-up of L-mount lenses that are smaller than the SL lenses

[jaapv]

They are just about the only ones - see the CL review thread.

[jonatdonuts]

Indeed. Loved the image quality of the CL (in good light, found it very similar to the M10 in both colour and detail) but those top dials were all over the place. I'd often find myself raising the camera to my eye and realising the settings had been completely altered, and it would take me 10-20 seconds to get me back to where I was. 

 

if they had stuck to the original X1 system of manual controls (and styling) I'd have gone gaga. 

Well that sounds like a more conventional version of the SL. I.e. the mount and sensor size of the SL, but more conventional ergonomics.

 

How well did the CL get received, anyway ? Camerastore on YouTube doesnt say often they hate a camera, but they hated the CL for its poorly done ergonomics.

[jaapv]

I wonder how you manage to do that.

We all play around with camera settings as circumstances require, but the trick is to reset quickly.

I have my preferred settings under a standard user profile and it takes me about one second to activate it without taking the camera off my eye, by putting user profiles under the right wheel button as a press-hold item.

 

If your dials are all over the place, that is because you programmed them that way. 

 

My right wheel:

 

Focusing

Focus Mode

AF Mode

Focus Peaking

ISO

Flash settings

User Profile.

 

Normally I keep it on Focus Mode or ISO, depending on what I am doing.

 

But you can also make some user profiles and keep the wheel button on user profile for lightning-fast switching.

 

BTW, my Fn button is:

 

Drive Mode

Focusing

Focus mode

Focus Peaking

Exposure metering

Exposure Compensation

User Profile

EVF-LCD

 

Of which I only use EVF-LCD, I must confess. .

 

 

It is just a case of setting the camera up properly to work to your wishes. 

CameraStore obviously did not go to the trouble of figuring out how the camera works - unforgivable for a serious reviewer, really, with such a clearly-designed interface.

[dkCambridgeshire]

'Leica Rumours' states:  'The new full frame camera will be based on a new sensor with outstanding low light high dynamic range capabilities'

 

'Outstanding low light …' could mean that the new sensor does not have 'high pixel density' - because 'low pixel density' offers better low light performance.

 

The new cameras could already be awaiting shipment. 

 

I'm wondering if the camera will also have an improved video performance? 

 

Leica Rumours will likely expand on their initial announcement before June 14. 

 

dunk 

Edited May 29, 2018 by dkCambridgeshire

[dkCambridgeshire]

I just hope this FF cammera comes with a line-up of L-mount lenses that are smaller than the SL lenses

 

 

Same size mount as the SL and TL lenses so unlikely to be smaller. 

 

dunk 

[jonatdonuts]

Very true re: interchangeable Q sized lenses. It would be a major feat of engineering to pull off, though if they do update the processor it might just be about workable, at least when it comes to the final output. But your point is well taken that a reliance on software correction as opposed to optical perfection would be very much against Leica's philosophy. 

 

However, I'm not too sure as to whether or not releasing a set of slow AF lenses would be a great idea for a couple of reasons:

 

a) Fast compact primes have been the benchmark of Leica's heritage to the extent that we are now spoilt by 1.4 apertures in every 'normal' focal length available, from 21mm to 75mm. A slow lens might be considered as a step backwards. And I don't think there would be many who would prefer compact but slow AF lenses when you consider that:

b ) The value of having a slow lens with AF is somewhat negated by the fact that zone focusing is a faster, more convenient way to shoot, at least with lenses from 18mm-35mm. In this case you might as well shoot with M lenses. 

c) The potential of the Canon APSC system (and to a lessor extent, the TL/CL system) has arguably been limited by the lack of fast lenses. Let's not even mention the X-Vario's lens which bombed upon arrival, some would say undeservedly so. But it did pave the way for the wonderful X113, and the only thing they changed there was to switch to a fast prime. 

 

I can very much see the rationale behind a smaller SL camera (perhaps the same size as the original Leicaflex...drool). However, the rumoured CM naming convention is confusing. 

 

Yes, we will indeed see. Awaiting June 14 with much anticipation!

 

 

I would not count too much on an interchangeable lens FF camera with the same small lens size as the Q's 28mm.

 

That lens is "bespoke" to the Q, and requires serious in-camera correction processing for massive barrel distortion to be as small as it is. For Leica to provide interchangeable lenses as small for the focal length and speed would require the hypothetical CM to manage such distortions (or other aberrations) across multiple lenses - while avoiding them at all when using legacy lenses (M, R, previous SL). And it rather runs against the grain of "Leica lens quality" to have to "fix" the pictures from multiple lenses with digital processing across a major system, as opposed to a more niche fixed-lens camera.

 

https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/246312-q-28mm-lens-design/

 

However, a "smaller SL" and a range of slower (and thus smaller) lenses, making use of the "new sensor with outstanding low-light...capabilities" might work. I'm all for a "smaller SL" - it would remove the folks trying to hijack the M10 for that purpose.

 

Anyway, I guess we'll see what Leica is really doing soon enough.

Edited May 29, 2018 by jonatdonuts

[jaapv]

So turns out the June 14th announcement is a whole new interchangeable lens full frame camera with a couple of L lenses in the mix. 

 

The 'M' in the name would suggest an M sized body, but as its an L mount the lenses would most probably be autofocus. Given the current SL lenses are massive, the new set of lenses could be more compact versions, cut from the same cloth as the Q's 28mm Summilux. 

 

However, given there's a Q2 in the works, this direction maybe a little bit confusing.

 

Thoughts? 

 

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/28/new-leica-mirrorless-camera-to-be-announced-in-june-leica-c-m.aspx/#more-52445  

The Q lens is an integrated design with the sensor, it does not transpose 1:1 to a removable lens.

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[lct]

I would expect a smaller SL instead. Leica did it with the R4 already.