Disappointed with Leica jpegs

[Tailwagger]

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I think that many, especially in Leicaland, would consider HCB to have been a ‚serious photographer‘. Yet he was totally unintetested in postprocessing, all of which he delegated. He was clever enough to team up with the congenial printer Pierre Gassmann. One of the more memorable qoutes from HCB is „Hunters, after all, are not cooks!“

 

On the other end of the spectrum you have Ansel Adams who would spend a week in the darkroom after a day of shooting.

 

Well, there's no doubt that I was raised by someone firmly in the Adams school.  That said, delegation of responsibility is not abrogation of it.  Its not like Mssr. Bresson found any old bum on the street or sent his cans off to Walmart for processing.  Lets not confuse relying on the sensibilities of a trusted and skilled partner with the expectation that the generic sensibilities of anonymous engineers embedded in silicon are capable of meeting one's, let alone everyone's, expectations.

 

I understand that some might find backend work tedious.  As I've remarked elsewhere on this forum, I only returned to photography in a serious way when it was no longer necessary to sit hour upon hour in the dark. However, unlike those who continue in the modern age to be disenchanted with the necessity for backend work, I did manage to spend enough time basking in the dim glow of red light to embrace the advent of the digital darkroom as a profoundly liberating experience.  What used to take hour upon hour, is now accomplished in seconds. But what has proven far more important is that the better I get at understanding the potential on the back end, the better I get at capturing the image as I ultimately wished it to be realized. Perhaps, I'm projecting my own shortcoming onto others, but my belief is that for those of us whose talents fall shy of the icons you cite, there is tremendous benefit to taking matters into ones own hands.  

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[jdlaing]

Hello JD,

 

I thought that photography was invented in 1829, not in 1826?

Best Regards,

 

Michael

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/firstphotograph/

[Michael Geschlecht]

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/firstphotograph/

 

Hello JD, 

 

Thank you for the reference.

 

The book that I have that I remembered the date 1829 from has the same photo of the roof tops thru the window. Altho the copy of the photo in the book that I have is a better quality of reproduction than the image at the site that you provided.

 

I will have to go & look at that book & get back to you about how accurate my memory was.

 

I hope that I will have better luck  finding this book than I have had in trying to locate the book about Romany People in Scotland at about the year 1820. It had become a subject of discussion in a Thread in Barnack's Bar & I have not been able to find my copy to date. Neither had any other Forum Members. Including a number of Members from Scotland.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited April 25, 2018 by Michael Geschlecht

[hollisd]

Leica gets a pass from many for anything subpar on this forum. It is primarily a fan forum. Criticism usually ends with an insinuation that the criticiser of Leica shouldn't be so bold to want something better. It's just the nature of the place. 

 

The forum feels like a circle jerk when someone posts mediocre photos. Critique constructively at your own risk for Jaap is ready to red card 

[erl]

The forum feels like a circle jerk when someone posts mediocre photos. Critique constructively at your own risk for Jaap is ready to red card 

I challenge you to justify, with example, such a blatant non fact.

 

Constructive criticism is quite different from vicious criticism.

[pgh]

Not to be confused with the even more prevalent rebuttal of uninformed and unfounded negativism.

I plead guilty to negativism when appropriate, because nothing improves when complacency is the norm. I even plead guilty to being uninformed in the general sense, because I don't know everything. I also may not be the most knowledgeable about Leica cameras specifically but I know plenty about making pictures across multiple platforms - which is what Leicas are - one such platform. 

[pgh]

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Another thing: You go on and on with how subpar the M10 sensor is. It is as bad as the best of Canon. It is not so good as Sony and Nikon, but Canon still have 50% of the marked with their subpar sensor.

Though the sensor is one thing, it's absolutely not just the sensor. The sensor is fine in a general sense, which I've said. It's just not as good as I think a Leica product should be. Anyways, Canon's best is also better. The 5dIV or the 5DsR sensors would both be welcome improvements in a Leica. I still elect to shoot my M most of the time, that doesn't mean it's can't be better.

When Leica wants to talk about image quality (to get back on topic, SOOC JPG's could be considered a part of this) as a key selling point it should be able to back that argument up a bit more strongly in the current marketplace. 

[feelssadman]

Am I the only one who really likes the JPEGs of the M10 then? I may not always use them for commissioned work but they're by far good enough for snapshots.

[Gobert]

The B/W’s are not bad.

[farnz]

... When Leica wants to talk about image quality (to get back on topic, SOOC JPG's could be considered a part of this) as a key selling point it should be able to back that argument up a bit more strongly in the current marketplace. 

The problem here is subjectivity, ignoring it, and claiming that a certain opinion is correct.  What others' might decide is good or poor 'image quality' (whatever that might be in the real world) might differ from my opinion or anyone else's for that matter so it renders the adjectives 'good' or 'poor' meaningless in this instance.

 

Personally I would not include or consider a jpeg in the evaluation of the merits of a picture from any camera because there are too many variables and unknowns ranging from the processing engine, the jpeg output intended or designed by the software writers (call it interpretation perhaps), and deliberate alteration to saturation, contrast, colour balance, and sharpness etc.

 

To be honest I don't really care much about how the camera renders a scene but more about what the final picture looks like largely regardless of how it came to look like it does.

 

Pete.

[jaapv]

I plead guilty to negativism when appropriate, because nothing improves when complacency is the norm. I even plead guilty to being uninformed in the general sense, because I don't know everything. I also may not be the most knowledgeable about Leica cameras specifically but I know plenty about making pictures across multiple platforms - which is what Leicas are - one such platform. 

Quite - and I claim the right of rebuttal from the perspective of (Leica-specific) knowledge. Those situations are called discussions, which is what internet forums are about.

[Chaemono]

I plead guilty to negativism when appropriate,...

In 500 posts or so.

 

pgh:

"A Zeiss lens on a Sony sensor is pretty much the gold standard now it seems and for me - when looking prints of any meaningful size (A3 or larger) Leica glass doesn't come within reasonable distance of closing that gap."

No sh!t: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Jfdr66/,

 

pgh:

"... with the Leica, it's a camera with basically no automation - what is the legitimate reason for not putting in a better sensor? We don't need more speed out of it. The only reason I can think of is that they don't feel like their lenses actually hold up to higher res sensors (maybe why they refer to it as the 'sweet spot') - which is another problem altogether given that less expensive Zeiss lenses render quite well across 42 mp,..."

No sh!t, again: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-Jfdr66/ and, again, https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-x8Mwmw/

..., because nothing improves when complacency is the norm...

Actually, I hear that with all your negativism on this forum about Leica, the M10, and their lenses, you've turned off so many prospective buyers that their sales and profits are starting to drop precipitously. Less profits means less money to spend on Research & Development. Less Research & Development spend means less product improvement. So your negativism is actually counterproductive. Besides, I read that negative thoughts increase the stress hormones in our bodies. Edited April 25, 2018 by Chaemono

[Michael Geschlecht]

http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/exhibitions/permanent/firstphotograph/

 

Hello JD,

 

Found it.

 

The book said Joseph Niepce, 1826 (With a better copy of the photo.) on a pewter plate. 8 hour exposure. Technology not explained

 

Then: Joseph Niepce & Jacques Daguerre, 1829 (The date I remembered.) on a copper plate coated with asphaltum which was covered by transparent paper. Called "Heliogravure". Technology explained.

 

Sensitized silver coated plates came in the 1830's. Technology explained.

 

Since you were so good at finding this: Do you think that you might want to try to find the book that I cannot locate about Romany People in Scotland which was written by someone who was there in Scotland, in about 1820? The book itself was published around 1870. Not even anyone from the British Isles, including from Scotland, was able to locate it when it became a point of discussion a while back in a Thread.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

[John Ricard]

Is there a reason you didn't just state which image was Fuji and which was Leica?

[250swb]

I think that many, especially in Leicaland, would consider HCB to have been a ‚serious photographer‘. Yet he was totally unintetested in postprocessing, all of which he delegated. He was clever enough to team up with the congenial printer Pierre Gassmann. One of the more memorable qoutes from HCB is „Hunters, after all, are not cooks!“

 

 

You ever came across the concept of 'rubbish in equals rubbish out? 'Delegating' doesn't omit the initial exposure, of which HCB was in full control and his images wouldn't have the impact they do it it wasn't for his best decisions, or in some cases his compromised decisions. The printer was there to compensate for the vagaries of the film and it's dynamic range. Adams made all his famous exposures with the post processing fully accounted for, the exposure on the film was only a part of the process. So it shouldn't be beyond the wit of digital photographers to create an exposure that falls within the dynamic range of the camera, with an average WB, and sort it out in post processing. Most film was shot with the Summer holiday at the start of the roll, the the next Summer holiday on the end of the roll, that is the perfect parallel for the disinterested technique of the JPEG hunter, and it doesn't equate to what HCB did.

[Jeff S]

Since you were so good at finding this: Do you think that you might want to try to find the book that I cannot locate about Romany People in Scotland which was written by someone who was there in Scotland, in about 1820? The book itself was published around 1870. Not even anyone from the British Isles, including from Scotland, was able to locate it when it became a point of discussion a while back in a Thread.

 

Information regarding Niépce and the first photo, etc. is easily available and discussed often.

 

However, regarding your question, is it any book referenced here?....

https://www.bl.uk/eblj/2016articles/pdf/ebljarticle92016.pdf

 

Jeff

[Surfheart]

Is there a reason you didn't just state which image was Fuji and which was Leica?

 

I didn't intend to be misleading.  It was my first post and I wasn't sure how the forum handled images.  I named the files appropriately but I see the forum doesn't expose that information in the post.  

 

I can't seem to edit that original post now?

 

On the topic of the thread I will say that I much prefer working on the M10 raws over the Fuji raws.  

Edited April 25, 2018 by Surfheart

[jdlaing]

Hello JD,

 

Found it.

 

The book said Joseph Niepce, 1826 (With a better copy of the photo.) on a pewter plate. 8 hour exposure. Technology not explained

 

Then: Joseph Niepce & Jacques Daguerre, 1829 (The date I remembered.) on a copper plate coated with asphaltum which was covered by transparent paper. Called "Heliogravure". Technology explained.

 

Sensitized silver coated plates came in the 1830's. Technology explained.

 

Since you were so good at finding this: Do you think that you might want to try to find the book that I cannot locate about Romany People in Scotland which was written by someone who was there in Scotland, in about 1820? The book itself was published around 1870. Not even anyone from the British Isles, including from Scotland, was able to locate it when it became a point of discussion a while back in a Thread.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Perhaps this one?

 

https://archive.org/details/gypsies00lela

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[abrewer]

I didn't intend to be misleading.  It was my first post and I wasn't sure how the forum handled images.  I named the files appropriately but I see the forum doesn't expose that information in the post.  

 

I can't seem to edit that original post now?

 

 

 

If you hover your mouse arrow over the image the name of the file will appear. 

You can make a different name (e.g., Leica pelican jpg) by entering that alternate name after the HTML tag <alt>.

You can edit your post any time by clicking Edit in the right corner beneath the text. 

I added the information for you in the text this time.

[farnz]

... You can edit your post any time by clicking Edit in the right corner beneath the text. 

I added the information for you in the text this time.

Alan,

 

I think only Moderators can do this.  We mere mortals are prevented from editing our posts after about an hour of posting them.

 

Pete.