Back in time or Back to the future: A 21mm Lens Dilemma

[Abram]

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Hi everyone, 

 

Let me start this post with an acknowledgement of my own foolishness. I went through something of a creative rut last year (despite it being a very positive year with lots of new change such as getting married, starting a new job and even getting a dog). As such, I basically sold off all of my equipment (save for my M-A body as it holds sentimental value) and started over. I initially wanted to only focus on 35mm as a focal length and purchased the Summilux 35mm FLE. I also upgraded my M240 to an M10 in the process. I've been using that setup since November and it's been great getting to know the lens and camera together (works quite well on film too!). 

 

As time has gone on I've come to discover that internally I really love 21mm, 35mm and 50mm as focal lengths (though my fallback will always be 28/50). Last year I had the 21mm Super Angulon and 50mm Elmar-M, I found them to be quite excellent as a pair but as previously mentioned, I sold them. I recently re-aquired a 50mm Elmar-M, along with an M4 body and I fully intend to keep the lens around this time as it does exactly what I want for a 50mm (I never really bonded with the Summilux ASPH and I liked the Summicron just fine but it never really WOWed me either, tried the Zeiss options too.)

 

So that's got me thinking that I want to re-buy a 21mm when I have the funds but I'm not totally sure if I want to go back to the Super Angulon or to step forward and look to the Super-Elmar. I understand they are radically different lens designs, but at the same time they are also comparable with one another. In reviewing my film from the SA21 I was quite fond of the rendering on film and though I did use it a little bit on the M240 I didn't particularly enjoy the hassle of having to do flat-field corrections (and honestly the edges never really worked well, not like they did on film). 

 

I should also mention that I primarily do black and white work but I do occasionally work in color. So now that I've rambled on, I'd love to hear your thoughts! I can't afford to buy either lens today but I am actively saving up for one and figure I'd be able to do so in a few months time or if I don't rush sometime in the next year.

 

I'll share a few SA21 images with you in the meantime as well All on my M-A and Tri-X

 

Flora. by Abram Goglanian, on Flickr

 

San Francisco Explorations by Abram Goglanian, on Flickr

 

San Francisco Explorations by Abram Goglanian, on Flickr

 

San Francisco Explorations by Abram Goglanian, on Flickr

 

San Francisco Explorations by Abram Goglanian, on Flickr

 

 

[a.noctilux]

It's time for you Abram to discover other 21mm

if it's the 21mm field of view or the Super-Angulon 21mm rendering that pleased you.

 

Voigtlander/Zeiss/etc. or even some SLR 20/21mm could be candidate : I use Zuiko OM 2/21 , Nikkor 4/20, 2.8/20 adapted to M along with S-A 4/21 and Elmarit-M 21mm.

I love them all and I can't recommend one as "universal 21" ( ... maybe 21mm Elmarit-M asph. for it's "kindness" usable on film and sensor).

[Abram]

It's time for you Abram to discover other 21mm

if it's the 21mm field of view or the Super-Angulon 21mm rendering that pleased you.

 

Voigtlander/Zeiss/etc. or even some SLR 20/21mm could be candidate : I use Zuiko OM 2/21 , Nikkor 4/20, 2.8/20 adapted to M along with S-A 4/21 and Elmarit-M 21mm.

I love them all and I can't recommend one as "universal 21" ( ... maybe 21mm Elmarit-M asph. for it's "kindness" usable on film and sensor).

 

I should mention I've owned the Voigtlander 21mm Color Skopar three times (never got one that wasn't decentered unfortunately), the 21mm f/1.8 Ultron, I've also had the Leica 21mm Elmarit ASPH and when I shot with Canon SLRs in the past I had the EOS 20mm f/2.8 and Zeiss 21mm f/2.8 Distagon. So I've had a chance to try out a bunch of options  

[ckuwajima]

Hi, I am a happy owner of a SA 21/3.4. It is wonderful with film, and your photos confirm this fact.
Unfortunately it does not work that well with my M10: it does not meter correctly with my pre-M5 lens, and presents magenta stains at photo borders. I am considering buying myself a SEM 21 or a WATE for the M10, but keeping the SA for film.

Edited February 13, 2018 by ckuwajima

[Ernstk]

A lower cost option but really nice in its rendering is the 21/2.8 Elmarit M (pre asph) for that classic Mandler look.

 

Ernst

[jaapv]

Yes, this is not an optimal lens on a sensor. Use a handheld exposure meter and correct vignetting and colour drift in postprocessing with flat field correction.

[pico]

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Yes, this is not an optimal lens on a sensor. Use a handheld exposure meter and correct vignetting and colour drift in postprocessing with flat field correction.

 

Is there a center-filter for the lens?

.

Edited February 13, 2018 by pico

[bocaburger]

I had a nice black version of the Super Angulon, and I appreciated its diminutive size compared to the pre-ASPH Elmarit, but otherwise found the S-A overrated for its (at the time) collector-inflated price.  I also owned the ASPH Elmarit at one time, but again, I didn't see enough to make it worth what it cost compared to the pre-ASPH.  I found the pre-ASPH excellent with film, and likewise digital.  I used it with M8, M9 and now M240.  That said, it has been supplanted in my travel kit by the CV 21/4, first in LTM version and later in M.  Luckily neither of them has exhibited any decentring or uneven-excess vignetting.  The M version is also much better build-quality than it's LTM predecessor, which I keep as a backup.  

 

Just for giggles I have tried my little Nikkor 21/4 on the M240, as it can be focused via EVF, with excellent results.  It has been my 21 of choice (with an adapter) for my EOS system for many years.

[pgk]

Is there a center-filter for the lens?

.

 

The 49mm Hasselblad (for the Xpan) works quite well if you use it in the hood. Still get colour problems on digital though.

[pgk]

So that's got me thinking that I want to re-buy a 21mm when I have the funds but I'm not totally sure if I want to go back to the Super Angulon or to step forward and look to the Super-Elmar. I understand they are radically different lens designs, but at the same time they are also comparable with one another.

The Super-Elmar is one of those lenses which has few (actually virtually no) faults. Its a superb lens. But I still have a rather rattly SA too which still works very well despite its digital shortcomings, sharp centre but soft corners, tendency to flare and Schneideritis which I still use too. There's an obvious solutions .....

[Abram]

Thanks for chiming in Paul! In my heart I want to just jump right back into the Super Angulon, but the "rational" part of my brain is finding it hard to justify buying lenses that aren't going to work well with my M10 (Despite the fact I'm primarily a film shooter, I very much like the M10 and it will be sticking around for my digital use for quite some time). Granted I don't HAVE to use a 21mm on the M10, but you know, it would be nice to have the option (thus the thinking for the Super-Elmar which would work without hassle).

 

Then there's the eternal struggle between a character lens and a performance lens, both have their merits. 

 

One thing I haven't tried that greatly interests me as well is the Zeiss 21mm f/4.5 C-Biogon. But I feel like that's an entirely different ball of wax.

[lct]

Aside from my Sony A7s mod, the SA 21/3.4 doesn't fit well on digital bodies. I have no experience with it on the Leica SL though. On my M240, the SEM 21/3.4 asph performs definitely better but has not the same character obviously.

[adli]

I second the 21/2.8 Elmarit M (pre asph) if you want to use it on digital.

[semi-ambivalent]

Thanks for chiming in Paul! In my heart I want to just jump right back into the Super Angulon, but the "rational" part of my brain is finding it hard to justify buying lenses that aren't going to work well with my M10 (Despite the fact I'm primarily a film shooter, I very much like the M10 and it will be sticking around for my digital use for quite some time). Granted I don't HAVE to use a 21mm on the M10, but you know, it would be nice to have the option (thus the thinking for the Super-Elmar which would work without hassle).

 

Then there's the eternal struggle between a character lens and a performance lens, both have their merits. 

 

One thing I haven't tried that greatly interests me as well is the Zeiss 21mm f/4.5 C-Biogon. But I feel like that's an entirely different ball of wax.

I recall at its introduction Leica pumping the 21SEM as being 'designed for digital photography'. Can't imagine it would fail you on your M10 (and whatever comes after). It's small for what it is and actually rather cheap for what it offers. 1:3.4 is not an issue with the M10. I can confirm it out-resolves Double-X and knows one gray from another quite nicely.

s-a

[Abram]

So I just so happened to find an early chrome SA21 which was in very good shape and with the original chrome viewfinder for a fairly low price so I jumped on that for the time being. From what I gather on everyone's responses though is that the Super Elmar 21 will still be worth pursuing so I might just go ahead and save up and plan to buy that sometime next year.

 

Thank you everyone for your insight and for taking the time to respond to my thread

[mmx_2]

I used the SA extensively when I had my M246. If you put the camera metering to “advanced” it worked very will and color drift was of course no problems:). On the mono it was really shining again! That being said I wouldn’t recommend anything else than the current SEM today. It’s one of Leicas best lenses and there is no real competition to it. It can be found used at around 1800eur or less with a little patience.

[Abram]

Indeed the SEM is impressive! It will remain on my radar and I'll probably get one in the future. 

[mmx_2]

I did have the older "Mandler" Elmarit 21 at one point and it's performance was nice although I liked the SA better. It was however quite bulky (E60 filter) and I never really liked it so in the end I sold it. A close friend of mine has the never E55 asph Elmarit 21 and it's really nice, performance wise closer to the SA and up until f5.6 "better", it's also less bulky than the old Mandler design. I replaced my Elmarit pre asph with the Zeiss ZM 21 f2.8 and it was really, really good, very close to the asph Leica in performance (matter of taste which one is better), but all of them are surpased by the current SEM, and it's a tiny lens!

 

I'm keeping the SA for film and "nostalgic reasons" (mine is a quite beaten up chrome version that used to belong to well-known Swedish press photographer that was also a close friend of our family), but for digital the SEM is by far the best you can get

Edited February 19, 2018 by mmx_2

[4X5B&W]

Agree 100% on the current 21 SEM !!

 

When I first started in photography the 21 SA was a GOTO lens for all serious photographers, and costly for anyone hoping to acquire one second hand.

Never could afford a mint used one and even well used versions sold for crazy prices because of the lens' reputation and required viewfinder.

 

Yes, over the years there have been good performing Leica 21's at reasonable prices - even while beat up 21 SA's were still pricey and not that suitable for digital applications.

 

However, when the compact, reasonably priced, glowingly reviewed, SEM hit the market it certainly got my attention.

 

As someone who jumped at finally owning an elite 21 Leica rangefinder lens, I will confirm - the SEM performs at a level that is  SUPER - impressive !! 

Edited February 19, 2018 by 4X5B&W

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[4X5B&W]

People who didn't follow photography in the pre-digital age may never have seen this, so I will mention why the 21mm 3.4 Super Angulon had/maybe still has, such a reputation as a classic lens.

 

In the film days of Photojournalism, it seemed that almost everyone who worked that industry, regardless of their preference in their selected prime shooting camera - usually with  multiple cameras on their shoulders, had a Leica M body on a short strap at their chest as their  "goto"  for certain images.

 

That M body almost always had a certain lens attached.......A small compact lens, that functionally and optically met their imaging standards.

 

It was the 21mm 3.4 SA !!

 

Hence it's popularity and reputation - truly a classic !!.

Edited February 19, 2018 by 4X5B&W