Fake IIIg?! Serial number doesn't match cameraQuest or LeicaWiki

[Jodad]

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Hey Guys.

Got this recently and just thought to look at the serial numbers and it comes up as an Ig not an IIIg. Any ideas whats going on here? If you think I've been scammed please let me know, maybe i can return it on ebay!

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[a.noctilux]

Nothing wrong.

 

This is a Leica that began life as Ig then transformed to IIIg by Leitz factory.

I bet that, in using, it's just as good as some other IIIg.

 

From start Leitz offered "upgrade program" since 1930's:

I have a Leica I transformed to Leica II and it just work as a Leica II.

And more, I like that...

 

 

 

 

 

Leica I updated to Leica II

 

 

 

For more info on Leica conversions,

have a look here : https://www.rangefinderforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=91238

[UliWer]

I am not sure if Leitz really upgraded an Ig to a IIIg - though I cannot rule it out.

 

On the other hand you can never completely rely on those lists to identify a camera by its number. So the IIIg shown here might well have been originally made as a IIIg and not a Ig.

[Jodad]

Thank you guys. I will read that other forum link, thanks for posting it a.Noc.

Is there any way i can check or know for sure you think?

[luigi bertolotti]

Me too have never read or heard about factory upgrade Ig-IIIg... the upgrades were provided at times in which Leica LTMs made very huge sales number... while the IIIg, co-existent with the modern (and hugely succesful) Leica M3 was a camera of no big numbers... and the Ig mostly a "lab camera" (some Leitz catalogues of the era even do not report Ig, probably considered a sort of "special" not targeted to the mainstram photographic market).

 

I think it's much more probable that, as UliWer wirites, is an "out of range" item... which isn't at all an uncommon case in Leica history; surely several Ig and IIIg were made in that year... and probably the IGs were made on specific orders from OEMs (*) ... with specific delivery times in certain batches, maybe with options to partially cancel and/or postpone/anticipate deliveries... those factors can explain some mixmatching in the factory-planned  s/n.

 

So, don't worry, it is by no mean a fake (dunno even if faked IIIg do exist... maybe faked IIg yes  ) and on the contrary, a bit of oddity in the s/n adds an interesting factor...

 

(*) customers like Siemens, or even Leitz itself - Microscopy division

Edited November 24, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[Jodad]

Oh! I had assumed that the serial number ranges were well adhered to. Thank you for the peace of mind guys! going to test it out and post up some pictures when i get it dev'd.  Need to post it up on the "LTM users stand up" forum too

[Dr. No]

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consulting the Hahne List it is a Ig form 1959, produced in the following batch: 925 381 - 925 440

 

No

[M9reno]

When you remove the baseplate and look inside the film holder, do you see the camera's serial number engraved there, matching the number on your top plate?

[Michael Geschlecht]

Hello Everybody,

 

Please don't forget that when Leitz was building & selling the M1: One of the things that they reminded people of was: That they could upgrade their M1 to an M2.  

 

Speaking of accuracy of Serial Numbers: Don't forget Serial Number 825 001

 

The IIg in the Original Leitz Tree in Wetzlar.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited November 25, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht

[luigi bertolotti]

Hello Everybody,

 

Please don't forget that when Leitz was building & selling the M1: One of the things that they reminded people of was: That they could upgrade their M1 to an M2.  

 

...

Yes, but , technically, I think that upgrading a M1 to M2 would be much easier than a IG to IIIG ; the M1 is a M2 with rangefinder mechanism removed (note, it retains the moving frames for parallax adjustment) , to say with the same casting of the body; IG and IIIG have a different body casting.. and considering that the shutter mechanism is fitted to the main body casting, I think that upgrading a IG to IIIG means, probably, to exchange 70% of the camera or so...

 

But... I don't pretend to affirm surely that the upgrade wasn't at all available : I have never seen a sort of listing of it. but Van Hasbroeck in his list of upgrades quotes also the IG to IIIG (and he was surely more informed than me) and says also that the upgrades he quotes (so, also IG-IIIG) "have all been advertised by Leitz".

Is an intriguing question... I wonder if someone in the German Forum has some evidence about...

Edited November 25, 2017 by luigi bertolotti

[jaapv]

Couldn't Leica have used a few Ig cameras to develop the IIIg?

[luigi bertolotti]

Could be another possibility, indeed... but the s/n is relatively "High"... even if they must always be taken with care, apparently it belongs to a timefram in which both IG and IIIG were "stable" products....

[Michael Geschlecht]

Couldn't Leica have used a few Ig cameras to develop the IIIg?

 

Hello Jaap,

 

A Ig is a IIIg with some additions.

 

The I, II, & III of screw mount cameras a thru g, as with the 1, 2 & 3, etc of M mount cameras denote the levels of options & add on's to the basic camera.

 

I or 1 means the most basic camera of that type: Screw Mount or M mount.

 

II or 2 means some added things.

 

III or 3 means: All of what is available in the best package then current.

 

That is why the M series began with the M3. Leitz started with the model with the most options.

 

With M cameras this progressed to 4 & higher.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited November 26, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht

[willeica]

I means no rangefinder, II means rangefinder with no slow shutter speeds, III means rangefinder with slow shutter speeds. As for the IIIg being discussed here, it is obviously genuine and is either an 'upgrade' or, most likely, it has an SN issued out of sequence, which is not as uncommon as some people think. There is no more or less to it than that. 

 

The published SN lists should not be treated as sacred scripture. I have seen other examples where SNs do not fit neatly into the published lists. This is particularly true of lenses.

 

William

[andybarton]

OT, but I thought that the M3 was so called because it had 3 framelines.

[Michael Geschlecht]

I means no rangefinder, II means rangefinder with no slow shutter speeds, III means rangefinder with slow shutter speeds. As for the IIIg being discussed here, it is obviously genuine and is either an 'upgrade' or, most likely, it has an SN issued out of sequence, which is not as uncommon as some people think. There is no more or less to it than that. 

 

The published SN lists should not be treated as sacred scripture. I have seen other examples where SNs do not fit neatly into the published lists. This is particularly true of lenses.

 

William

 

Hello William,

 

And, in the M series:

 

M1 means: No rangefinder & without some options.

 

M 2 means: With the less accurate rangefinder. Also without some options.

 

M 3 means: The better rangefinder & protective frames around the rangefinder, illumination & viewfinder windows. Protective collar around the lens release button. Protected exposure counter, etc: All of the options then currently available.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited November 26, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht

[Michael Geschlecht]

OT, but I thought that the M3 was so called because it had 3 framelines.

 

Hello Andy,

 

The fact that the M 3 has 3 sets of frame lines: 50mm, 90mm & 135mm, is part of the justification of this "urban myth". Altho, it is undeniable that the M 3 does have 3 sets of frame lines.

 

M4 added a 4th frame line AND: Faster, angled rewind, self re-setting quick load & standard P/C electrical contacts to an M2.

 

M5 added: A behind the lens semi-spot meter readable inside the range/viewfinder window. A Hot shoe - which created a camera with 3 separate electrical contacts. Better shutter speed dial, etc.

 

And M 6 went on from there. And so on.

 

Best Regards,

 

Michael

Edited November 26, 2017 by Michael Geschlecht

[Jodad]

When you remove the baseplate and look inside the film holder, do you see the camera's serial number engraved there, matching the number on your top plate?

Interesting. I will try this tonight when i get home. Thanks M9reno

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[a.noctilux]

Interesting. I will try this tonight when i get home. Thanks M9reno

 

Another odd thing about Leitz .

Not ALL camera (we talt about LTM only now) has the well know "inside ungraved serial number":

- only on just for Ig and IIIg in my possession

- one IIIg has that serial number in film canister chamber and the other IIIg NO number at same place (and nowhere inside)

- one Ig has that serial number in film canister chamber

[willeica]

Another odd thing about Leitz .

Not ALL camera (we talt about LTM only now) has the well know "inside ungraved serial number":

- only on just for Ig and IIIg in my possession

- one IIIg has that serial number in film canister chamber and the other IIIg NO number at same place (and nowhere inside)

- one Ig has that serial number in film canister chamber

 

Now you know what I mean about the foolishness of looking for consistency in Leica numbering. The camera owned by the OP is genuine and no more need be said.

 

William